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> Armistice negociations with Soviet Union
mabadesc
Posted: June 14, 2005 09:16 pm
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In the second half of 1943, Churchill sent out secret diplomatic "feelers" to Romania, Hungary, and Turkey with regards to the creation of a "Balkan League" which would be opposed to both the Soviet Union as well as Germany, while being an ally of the UK/France/US partnership.

Anyone have more details on this?
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mars
Posted: June 16, 2005 02:44 pm
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QUOTE (mabadesc @ Jun 14 2005, 09:16 PM)
In the second half of 1943, Churchill sent out secret diplomatic "feelers" to Romania, Hungary, and Turkey with regards to the creation of a "Balkan League" which would be opposed to both the Soviet Union as well as Germany, while being an ally of the UK/France/US partnership.

Anyone have more details on this?

in 1943 ? That was unbelievable,Churchill must be a very bad businessman, offending one of most powerfull ally and for what ? support from Rumania and Hungary ? Neither Rumania nor Hungary could stand agains Soviet or Germany alone, then what British could do ? Declare war against Soviet and Germany at the same time ?
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sid guttridge
Posted: June 16, 2005 04:00 pm
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Hi Mars,

There is some truth in this.

Churchill was very keen to ferment trouble for the Grermans in the Balkans.

Quite apart from major arms deliveries to Turkey in 1943, the British built up the Greek fleet, airforce and two infantry divisions in the Middle East in 1942-43.

They also supported smaller royalist Yugoslav army, naval and air forces in Tunisia, Malta and Italy in 1943, kept contact open with both Mihailovic's Cetniks and Tito's Communists in Yugoslavia and, after a series of commando raids, landed a commando brigade on the Yugoslav Adriatic coast in 1944.

The King of Albania was in London and contact was kept with both royalist and communist guerrillas in Albania itself.

Talks were held with Romania in Cairo and Turkey in 1943-44 and also with Bulgaria. Both countries also received secret missions with radios to facilitate direct communications. In Romania's case this was known as Operation Autonomous and the mission arrived in December 1943.

However, without US support (as discussed above) the British could not follow through on their plans and so in 1944 the whole thing became transformed into a diversion plan designed to tie down German forces away from active battlefonts. Of course, the Balkan governments could not be told this and they continued to hold unrealistic hopes for a direct Anglo-American intervention in the Balkans.

By default, therefore, most of the Balkans were over run by the Red Army. The Percentages Agreement was a final attempt by Churchill to restrict Soviet influence in the region, but without troops on the ground, except in Greece, this had little weight.

Besides, as you posted, the USSR was then too important (indeed central) to the Allied war effort for it to be antagonised in favour of several small countries then in the enemy camp.

Cheers,

Sid.
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mars
Posted: June 16, 2005 04:18 pm
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sid guttridge, an excellent idea in 1945 could be a very stupid one in 1943
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cristi
Posted: June 16, 2005 04:38 pm
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Very interesting article today in Jurnalul National
to conclude a war you need to start first.
sorry but i don't find english version

http://www.jurnalul.ro/articol.php?id=355
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Imperialist
Posted: June 16, 2005 05:04 pm
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QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Jun 16 2005, 04:00 PM)


Talks were held with Romania in Cairo and Turkey in 1943-44 and also with Bulgaria. Both countries also received secret missions with radios to facilitate direct communications. In Romania's case this was known as Operation Autonomous and the mission arrived in December 1943.


Besides, as you posted, the USSR was then too important (indeed central) to the Allied war effort for it to be antagonised in favour of several small countries then in the enemy camp.

I think the private talks with some romanians (not with Romania) were diversionary from the start!
Romania still had hundreds of thousands of troops in the East alongside the germans, so a change of sides under the "patronage" of British landings in Greece and Yugoslavia would have imperilled those. Maybe Bulgaria would have done it, but we were irrevocably tied to the germans at that time.
At that time USSR would have welcomed an opening of a new front in the Balkans.
Also, the fact that Churchill thought of the plan in terms of both anti-german and anti-USSR shows rather his long-term assessment of the next great competitor (USSR) rather than his childish understanding of inter-ally politics.
He was going to reveal the anti-USSR character of the mission only at the moment when Germany was finished and the new wind of the Cold War would have gave the british presence in the Balkans an anti-USSR character.
Churchill knew the Cold War was the next logical phase.

take care
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Victor
Posted: June 16, 2005 06:13 pm
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QUOTE (cristi @ Jun 16 2005, 06:38 PM)
Very interesting article today in Jurnalul National
to conclude a war you need to start first.
sorry but i don't find english version

http://www.jurnalul.ro/articol.php?id=355

Yet another pseudo-historical article in a Romanian newspaper, which brings forth a lot of unsourced information and biased conclusions with the main purpose to shock the readers. Let's get back to the original subject of the thread.
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Imperialist
Posted: June 16, 2005 06:21 pm
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QUOTE (Victor @ Jun 16 2005, 06:13 PM)

Yet another pseudo-historical article in a Romanian newspaper, which brings forth a lot of unsourced information and biased conclusions with the main purpose to shock the readers. Let's get back to the original subject of the thread.

Not everything in this world is put on paper so that it can be referenced later.
I think the article is useful in at least exciting curiosity and further research or interest.
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sid guttridge
Posted: June 18, 2005 09:00 am
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Hi Imperialist,

While it is true that not everything in this world is put on paper so that it can be referenced later, anything that cannot be referenced later must necessarily be given rather less credibility.

Indeed, it should be remembered that it is also true that complete fiction cannot be referenced later.

It is vitally important to be able to differentiate fact from fiction, so we should endeavour to maintain the highest possible standards of reference in order to be able to distinguish between the two.

Cheers,

Sid.
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Imperialist
Posted: June 18, 2005 09:07 am
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QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Jun 18 2005, 09:00 AM)


It is vitally important to be able to differentiate fact from fiction, so we should endeavour to maintain the highest possible standards of reference in order to be able to distinguish between the two.


True.

But please answer my question here:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...=15&#entry34549

What you said was fact or fiction? What were the reference standards you used?

lets continue the discussion there

thanx

This post has been edited by Imperialist on June 18, 2005 09:09 am
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Victor
Posted: June 18, 2005 11:27 am
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QUOTE (Imperialist @ Jun 16 2005, 08:21 PM)
Not everything in this world is put on paper so that it can be referenced later.
I think the article is useful in at least exciting curiosity and further research or interest.

In my opinion, the article is meant mostly to shock. It tries to prove the idea that Great Britain was trying to "bait" Germany to get involved in the Balkans, without much regard to actual facts. Just circumstantial evidence. Also the tone of the article is very journalistic and lacks the objectivity of a historical work.

For a better understanding of the evolution of the German - Romanian relations in the 30s, I would recommend Rebecca Haynes' excellent book, published by Polirom (IIRC) several years ago. It consistently proves that Germany and Romania (especially) were making efforts to get closer to eachother during that period. Germany had many economical interests in the Balkans and did not needed to "baited" by Great Britain.

This is obviously off-topic, so if you want to continue the discussion, please tell me, and I will move it somewhere else.
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Petre
Posted: January 17, 2012 08:55 am
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Petre
Posted: October 21, 2015 07:20 am
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(e) Book : Lev Sotskov, The Operation code-name “Tarantella”.
Declassified archive of the Russian Foreign Inteligence Service

Chapter : Marshal Antonescu
( ... )
News from Mexic
( ... )
Fostul ministru al Palatului Urdăreanu, care intra īn cercul de apropiaţi al lui Carol şi īn emigraţie, a solicitat printr-un intermediar... о īntrevedere cu un oficial al guvernului sovietic pentru a prezenta cāteva propuneri. A fost exprimată rugămintea pentru stricta confidenţialitate a īntregii afaceri şi necesitatea de a păstra secret conţinutul prezentei īntrevederi ... şi faţă de aliaţi, adică SUA şi Marea Britanie. Această ultimă prevedere a stārnit imediat alertă, dar s-a decis să fie ascultaţi totuşi iniţiatorii īntrevederii.
Urdăreanu a vorbit īn numele lui Carol, propunerile prezentate de el sunau ca un mesaj. Erau trei puncte :
1. A venit vremea să ne gīndim la formarea unui guvern romān provizoriu pe teritoriul Romāniei eliberat de nemţi, la vest de Prut. Pentru Romānia ca vecin al URSS cel mai important era ieşirea din război şi stabilirea cu aceasta relaţii solide şi prieteneşti, īn timp ce cercul reprezentat de prinţul Ştirbey poartă discuţii cu britanicii şi americanii, neīnţelegānd că viitorul ţării depinde īn primul rānd de Uniunea Sovietic[.
Pe ieşirea benevolă a Romāniei din război, din cauza prezenţei trupelor germane pe teritoriul ei, nu se poate conta. Sarcina constă īn formarea unui Guvern provizoriu pe teritoriul eliberat de trupele sovietice, al cărui program să fie īnţeles de popor şi să-l ridice la lupta cu germanii. Anume acest guvern să īncheie şi pacea.
2. Carol, ţinānd seamă că fiul său Mihai, ca prizonier al germanilor, era lipsit de posibilităţi de a reprezenta şi apăra interesele naţiunii romāne, se proclamă regent al Romāniei.
Carol este gata să zboare īn URSS cu suita sa şi să treacă īn teritoriul romānesc eliberat. Cu această solicitare el apelează la guvernul sovietic, īnţelegānd nu numai complexitatea politică a rezolvării problemei viitorului guvern, dar şi pe cea tehnică, īn special pentru că se poate conta greu pe sprijinul aliaților, īn special britanicii şi parţial americanii.
3. URSS din partea sa :
а) garantează integritatea teritorială a Romāniei;
b) declară despre păstrarea ordinei existente īn ţară;
c) se obligă să ajute Romāniei revenirea Transilvaniei;
d) ambele state renunţă reciproc la despăgubirile pentru prejudiciile cauzate de acţiunile militare.
Urdăreanu a explicat īn continuare că regele acordă fireşte o īnsemnătate deosebită tratativele privind Transilvania şi, fără legătură cu cealaltă parte a propunerilor sale, contează pe acceptarea amintitului punct de către guvernul sovietic, pentru că asta va stārni entuziasmul popular şi mānia contra nemţilor. Cum era de părere regele, o Romānie puternică şi prietenoasă la graniţele URSS era mai importantă decīt o Ungarie mărită nefiresc şi tradiţional ostilă Rusiei.
Referitor la punctul «d» i s-a spus lui Urdăreanu că nu este doar de neīnţeles ci şi de neconceput, deoarece Uniunea Sovietică nu a invadat Romānia, şi de aceea nu poate fi vorba de nicio pretenţie. La acestea Urdăreanu a răspuns că a prevăzut obiecţia, dar roagă să se ţină seama de tăria atitudinii antisovietice şi prejudecăţilor create artificial de germani şi de cercurile pro-germane chiar īn Romānia şi de faptul că de la conştientizarea īnfrāngerii pānă la īnţelegerea nevoi de a-şi orienta soarta către prietenia cu URSS este o mare distanţă.
Cānd a venit la Moscova informaţia din Mexic cu cererea romānească, atunci la subdiviziunea de informaţii externe, cu toată lipsa teribilă de timp, au fost revăzute toate materialele informative privind trecutul lui Carol şi s-a īntocmit o fişă.
Imaginea s-a creionat astfel :
( ... )
Din ordinul lui Carol, Şeful informaţiilor romāneşti, general Muruzov s-a īntālnit cu «Britt» şi l-a invitat să-l ţină sub observare pe Ştirbey.
( ... )

Cum reiese din documentele disponibile la centru, Carol īncercase şi mai īnainte să-şi exprime poziţia. Deja la patru luni de la invadarea Uniunii Sovietice, a trimis guvernelor SUA şi Marii Britanii un apel, īn care scria că Romānia este īnrobită de Germania, e condusă de oamenii ei, care servesc interesele germanilor, iar regele Mihai este prizonierul lor. Carol a exprimt disponibilitatea de a sta īn fruntea acelor forţe patriotice ale Romāniei, care sunt gata să treacă de partea aliaţilor. Сu acest scop a propus formarea Consiliului Naţional al Romāniei Libere, al cărui principale scopuri erau astfel īnţelese : favorizarea eliberării Romāniei de germani; sprijin pentru regele Mihai īn a-şi īntări poziţia, conform Constituţiei şi demnităţii coroanei; reorganizarea Romāniei īn conformitate cu spiritul Cartei Atlantice.
Pentru realizarea acestor intenţii, Carol a cerut asistenţă guvernelor Majestăţii Sale şi al Statelor Unite. Astefl, de studierea iniţiativelor lui Carol, Londra se ocupau mai devreme decīt Moscova. Contactele lui Carol cu britanicii se ţineau prin Ambasada Marii Britanii din Washington.
Prin posibilităţile rezidenturii NKGB la Londra ... a fost obţinut şi raportat conducerii politice a URSS textul indicaţiei Foreign Office către ambasadorul Halifax īn această privinţă, unde era formulată clar şi concret poziţia Marii Britanii. Telegrama cifrată era datată 15 sept. 1941 şi era, se vede, un răspuns la informaţia venită de la ambasador despre propunerile lui Carol. Cităm :
«1. Noi am respins pānă acum ideea de a crea vre-un fel de mişcare romānească liberă pe considerentele de mai jos :
а) īn prezent nu dispunem de nicio personalitate romānă cu suficientă autoritate īn Romānia, potrivit a conduce o astfel de mişcare cu perspective de succes;
b) orice mişcare trebuie să aibă sprijin politic şi să se bucure de īncrederea lui Maniu —liderul PNŢ, singurul partid aflat total de partea noastră şi capabil să organizeze rezistenţa la regimul existent.
2. Regele nu īndeplineşte nici-una din condiţiile sus-indicate.
Noi credem că este persoana cea mai detestată din īntreaga Romānie. Orice mişcare asociată cu numele său va fi suspectată de intenţia de a-i restabili suveranitatea şi provoacă de aceea ostilitate faţă de ea, nu doar din partea PNŢ, dar şi a īntregului popor romān.
3. De aceea, propunem a se răspunde că īn acelaş timp cu simpatia noastră faţă de scopurile lui Carol, suntem convinşi că ele nu pot fi atinse de acea mişcare care nu beneficiază de sprijinul total din partea lui Maniu şi a PNŢ, iar fără suficiente asigurări īn această privinţă Noi nu putem, spre marele nostru regret, să susţinem propunerile sale».

Сu Carol totul a fost clar şi pentru britanici şi pentru partea sovietică : un rol important īn Romānia īl vor avea alţi oameni.


This post has been edited by Petre on October 21, 2015 07:26 am
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