Romania in NATO |  |  |
| Romanian Army in the Second World War · Forum Guidelines |
 Help
 Search
 Members
 Calendar
|
| Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register ) | Resend Validation Email |
| Pages: (5) « First ... 2 3 [4] 5 ( Go to first unread post ) |    |
Romania in NATO| johnny_bi |
Posted: May 03, 2004 11:04 pm
|
||
 Sergent major  Group: Members Posts: 214 Member No.: 6 Joined: June 18, 2003  |
And the solution would be.... ? In order to solve the "etnical tensions" to split for example Targu-Mures in two? In 1990 ethnical tensions erupted in Targu-Mures (where population is around 50% ethnic Hungarians -50% ethnic Romanians) not in Covasna and Harghita (where the majority is composed by the Szekelers)... For me, now, the solution is just to pray and to be tolerant... I am definately sure that a better economical situation would solve the "ethnic tensions" as well... |
||
|
| Najroda |
Posted: May 10, 2004 03:25 pm
|
||
|
Fruntas  Group: Banned Posts: 66 Member No.: 193 Joined: January 13, 2004 |
Despite numerous attempts to explain to you that demands for autonomy have nothing to do with revisionism, they are actually eachother's opposites in many ways, you stubbornly keep equating them. But your comparison with holocaust deniers is about the ghastliest thing I have read on this forum so far, and it pretty well demonstrates your inability to perceive issues from different angles. |
||
|
|
| Najroda |
Posted: May 10, 2004 03:29 pm
|
||||
|
Fruntas Group: Banned Posts: 66 Member No.: 193 Joined: January 13, 2004 |
Don't forget that Kosovo, as much as the rest of former Yugoslava was hailed as an example of interethnic harmony for decades. Of course back then it still enjoyed regional autonomy, before Milosveic abolished it in 1987... |
||||
|
|
| Najroda |
Posted: May 10, 2004 03:36 pm
|
||||
|
Fruntas Group: Banned Posts: 66 Member No.: 193 Joined: January 13, 2004 |
I see many people, including this board's admins, are confused about the concept of regional autonomy. Therefore I suggest a little educational learning on this topic: Council of Europe Conseil de l'Europe Parliamentary Assembly Assemblée parlementaire Positive experiences of autonomous regions as a source of inspiration for conflict resolution in Europe Doc. 9824 3 June 2003 Report Political Affairs Committee Rapporteur: Mr Gross, Switzerland, Socialist Group Summary Most present-day conflicts no longer occur between states but within states and are rooted in tensions between states and minority groups whichdemand the right to preserve their identities. These tensions are partly due to the territorial changes and the emergence of new states which followed the two world wars and the collapse of the old communist system, and also reflect the inevitable development of the concept of the nation-state, which, hitherto, viewed national sovereignty and cultural homogeneity as essential. Autonomy as applied in states governed by the rule of law can be a source of inspiration inseeking ways to resolve internal political conflicts. Autonomy allows a group which is a minority within a state to exercise its rights, while providing certain guarantees of the state’s unity, sovereignty and territorial integrity. Autonomous status may be applied to various systems of political organisation and means that autonomous entities are given specific powers, either devolved or shared with central government, while remaining under the latter’s authority. In order to provide the right conditions for the permanence of autonomy, the report recommends compliance with a number of basic principles, including the creation of a legal framework for autonomous status, a clear division of powers and the establishment of democratically elected legislative and executive bodies in autonomous regions. Read the whole report (in English) here: http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/WorkingD...03/EDOC9824.htm |
||||
|
|
| johnny_bi |
Posted: May 11, 2004 01:26 am
|
|
Sergent major Group: Members Posts: 214 Member No.: 6 Joined: June 18, 2003 |
I think that you didn't read what I wrote... The problems irrupted there were the proportion was about 1/2 Romanians and 1/2 Hungarians... not in Covasna or Harghita ...
In Targu-Mures, the pragmatical decission would have been .... ? The text you provide, gave a framework... not an issue... And ... about nation-state ... do not forget that it was not discovered by the communists... and it was tried (succesfully :laugh: ) by the others... |
|
|
| johnny_bi |
Posted: May 11, 2004 01:32 am
|
||
|
Sergent major Group: Members Posts: 214 Member No.: 6 Joined: June 18, 2003 |
Well... that it is not hte case in Romania today...  |
||
|
|
| Najroda |
Posted: May 11, 2004 06:36 am
|
||||||
|
Fruntas Group: Banned Posts: 66 Member No.: 193 Joined: January 13, 2004 |
Nobody ever said it's an ad-hoc solution. And the fact that some towns and/or villages have a mixed population is not an argument against autonomy. For example in southern Tyrol, which the report mentions as a most succesful examples of regional autonomy, and which' situation is very comparable with the Szeklerland's, has a tri-linguial status, which means that all three regional languages (German, Italian, Ladin) have an official status in all aspects of public life and in all localities withion the autonomous province, no matter if the town/village in question has a German speaking, Italian speaking or Ladin speaking majority. The larger towns are typically very mixed, including the capital Bozen/Bolzano, which actually has an Italian speaking majority.
Exactly. I don't know why you think it could serve as an ad-hoc or even short-term solution. Obviously the destructive work of decades of nationalistic oppression cannot be wiped out with one stroke of a pen.
You mean like France, whuich we can perhaps consider the inventor of the "nation state", which succesfully destroyed the culture and language(or nearly did) of the Flemmish, Bretons, Occitans, Basques, Alsatians etc. who only 200 years made up a combined 80% (!!!) of France's population? If you find this such an ideal stateform then what possoible objections can you have against the Hungarian kingdom, which attempted to define itself as a nation state between 1867 and 1918. With much less "succes" than for example France or Romania BTW. I am curious awaiting your answer, which I am sure will show that you do not apply double standards here  |
||||||
|
|
| Najroda |
Posted: May 11, 2004 06:38 am
|
||||
|
Fruntas Group: Banned Posts: 66 Member No.: 193 Joined: January 13, 2004 |
Indeed, the Szeklerland's autonomy (which I admit was not a very good example of it, but it was more than nothing) was abolished a couple of decades earlier... |
||||
|
|
| dragos |
Posted: May 11, 2004 07:21 am
|
||||
 Admin  Group: Admin Posts: 2397 Member No.: 2 Joined: February 11, 2003 |
Najroda. this topic missed you... :| The ideal of nation state was promoted by most European states at the end of World War I. However, I don't see on which grounds could have Hungarian kingdom define as a nation state. The great Romania was formed according to the principle of nationalities, but we can discuss about this on another topic.
So what do you want to say? That Transylvania can become a new Kosovo? It's cheap agitation :!: |
||||
 
|
| Chandernagore |
Posted: May 11, 2004 09:09 am
|
||
|
Locotenent colonel Group: Banned Posts: 818 Member No.: 106 Joined: September 22, 2003 |
I'm not sure wether this is pure anti French biggotry or lack of historical perspective. France was not worse in this regards than any other European power. What special actions did France undertake (that others would not) and which contributed to destroy their component cultures ??? |
||
|
|
| johnny_bi |
Posted: May 11, 2004 02:15 pm
|
||
|
Sergent major Group: Members Posts: 214 Member No.: 6 Joined: June 18, 2003 |
Autonomy that was supported by our common dear friends ... the Soviets and we all know why... |
||
|
|
| Najroda |
Posted: May 13, 2004 07:59 am
|
||||||||
|
Fruntas Group: Banned Posts: 66 Member No.: 193 Joined: January 13, 2004 |
No Comment.
With 55% Hungarians, definitely more than France around 1800, where only ~20% of the pop. was French speaking and not much less than Great Romania after WW I, where around 2/3 of the pop. was Romanian
See above. Around 1/3 of it's population was non-Romanian, which can hardly be seen as an "improvement" compared to 55% Hungarians/45% nationalities (of which BTW many were loyal to the millenial Hungarian state, like the 11% German, see the Sopron/Ödenburg plebiscite of 1921 where they voted to remain with Hungary instead of joining Austria. If the Germans near the Austrian border showed such loyalty, imagine the Germans of the Zips, Banat, Siebenbürgen etc.). But obviously to you it's a difference of heaven and hell. Point taken...
No, that's not what I wanted to say (but of course under certain circumstances simmilar things could have happened, and could even happen today, but it is more unlikely than ever). Anyway if you read "conflict", you do not necessarily have to think Kosovo. Interethnic conflict can manifest itself in many ways, sometimes it doesn't come to conflict, but it negative effects manifest themselves as higher emigration and death/suicide rates, lower birth rates etc. among minorities, which, if occuring on a large enough scale is not only devastating to the minority itself, but to the entire country. Well, just visit the border region of Hungary and Romania, compare a few simmilar sized towns and villages on either side of the border (may I suggest the almost purely Romanian inhabited village Méhkerék/Mehcerici in SE Hungary and any nearby Hungarian village just across the border in Romania). Observe, compare and conclude for yourself, if you have never done so... And oh yes, the conclusion that autonomy is a usefull tool to prevent conflict is not my conclusion. It's the Council of Europe's. Perhaps you should buy a ticket to Strasbourg and accuse mr. Gross and his colleagues of cheap agitation  |
||||||||
|
|
| Najroda |
Posted: May 13, 2004 08:05 am
|
||||
|
Fruntas Group: Banned Posts: 66 Member No.: 193 Joined: January 13, 2004 |
Nothing but making French the sole language in all aspects of life (administration, education, economy). Usually, it's enough. Why do you think certain Romanian politicians object when language rights of minorities are in question, somthing which never diminished the rights of Romanian speakers (all that happens is that minority language(s) next to Romanian, it does not replace it)? Perhaps they know something you don't... Of course this is true for dozens of countries besides France and Romania, only France was the first and I think the most succesful, and we are talking about Romania |
||||
|
|
| Najroda |
Posted: May 13, 2004 08:10 am
|
||||
|
Fruntas Group: Banned Posts: 66 Member No.: 193 Joined: January 13, 2004 |
That's a very demagogue and shortsighted statement. We could start to argue wether it was real autonomy in the real sense. I don't think it was. But socialism/communism was also called "democray" sometimes (see: German Democratic Republic). Now was it a real democracy? And is this negative example it a reason to dismiss the concept of realdemocracy? |
||||
|
|
| johnny_bi |
Posted: May 13, 2004 01:35 pm
|
||||
|
Sergent major Group: Members Posts: 214 Member No.: 6 Joined: June 18, 2003 |
Again, it was an observation... The Soviets tried to keep Romanians "in short" and they were observing the "democratic evolutions" in Bucharest and eventually returning Transilvania to Romania. But you know that.
Exactely... How could you talk about an autonomy (except on paper) when all Romania entered into the Red Zone and was heading to "socialist democracy"... |
||||
|
|
0 User(s) are reading this topic (0 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:
Pages: (5) « First ... 2 3 [4] 5 |
|
[ Script Execution time: 0.0285 ] [ 14 queries used ] [ GZIP Enabled ]
Powered by Invision Power Board(U) v1.3.1 Final © 2003 IPS, Inc.