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> axis ships and convoys
Sergey
Posted: July 10, 2003 07:35 am
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Hello daveh,

Unfortunately, Rohwer’s work contains in a part of subs of the Black Sea fleet many mistakes. Apparently, he did not manage to study a Journal of Battle Operations Konstanza, which was captured and is now in the Soviet archives.

By the way, Theo, the damage of a hunter Uj 101 by the not exploited torpedo at 10.37 23.11.43 in a point 45.32N/ 32.32E in these documents is fixed. The same day hunter was damaged by aircrafts. The repair was effected in Sevastopol till 13.12.43.

Best at present book about operations of the Soviet submarines by the Black sea is M. Morozov "Submarines of VMF USSR in Great Patriotic War 1941-1945. The annals of battle campaigns. Part 2. Black Sea fleet", grounded extremely on archival datas and double-ended sources in a part of results of attacks of submarines and their losses.
Unfortunately, only in Russian. It is possible to buy: firm " Strategy of KM ", 125015, Moscow, Russia, Novodmitrovskaja st., office 1601, telephone +7 (095) 787 3610. http://www.kvest.com/publish.asp?pub_id='2884'
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Sergey
Posted: July 10, 2003 12:11 pm
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Hello Victor,

Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:47 you wrote: “Yes, they did. Hungary had 7 cargo ships (a total of 3,800 tons) and Bulgaria had 8 ships (a total of 11,000 tons). They were subordinated to the German Command and used to supply the troops on the front. Since Hungary had no warships in the Black Sea and Bulgaria refused to engage its war fleet outside its territorial waters, the escort duties were carried out by the Romanian Royal Navy and by the Kriegsmarine.”


I have included (without Warships, such as Regele Carol I and Romania) 32 German (21 lost), 16 Romanian (13 lost), 7 Italian (3 lost), 7 Hungarian (1 lost) and 4 Bulgarian (3 lost) vessels.
Probably, some vessels not in the list. It is possible it to specify?

Type and name of a vessel / tonnage, BRT/ year of construction / nation/ fate

German:

T Firuz 7.327 1928 germ. = 06.08.43 T SS SC-216, = 11.05.44 T SS L-4
D Boy Feddersen 6.689 germ. + 10.08.43 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Santa Fe 4.627 1921 germ. + 23.11.43 sov. or germ. M
D Theoderich 3.814 1912 germ. + 22.11.43 T SS M-111
D Peter 3.754 germ. + 04.03.44 brit. AIRCRAFT
T Ossag 2.793 1922 germ. = 14.11.42 T SS L-23, + 22.04.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Totila 2.773 1942 germ. + 10.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Teja 2.773 1942 germ. + 10.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Birgit 1.971 germ. + 12.06.43 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Gertrud 1.960 1930 germ.
D Johanna 1.899 1925 germ.
D Thisbe 1.782 1925 germ. + 30.08.43 T SS SC-215
D Arkadia 1.756 1927 germ. + 28.04.43 germ. M
D Salzburg 1.742 1921 germ. + 01.10.42 T SS M-118
D Helga 1.620 germ. # 11.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Scharlotta 1.591 germ. + 1944 germ. M
D Cordelia 1.357 germ. + 02.12.41 M
D Lola 1.193 1920 germ. = 29.04.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Wolga-Don 956 germ. + 25.11.43 T SS L-6
T Prodromos 877 1907 germ. + 09.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Geiserich 712 germ. + 12.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
T Le Progress 511 1892 germ. + 21.10.42 T SS M-35
D Char'kov germ.
T Dresden germ.
T MT I germ.
lighter Tyna V 1278 t germ. + 25.10.43 T SS M-112
lighter CNR 1293 1270 t germ. + 02.11.43 T SS M-35
lighter Elbe 5 500 germ. + 07.05.44 T MTB TKA-304
lighter Leo 409 germ. + 25.04.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Adelheid 444 germ.
tug Junak 444 germ. + 03.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Heinburg 378 1912 germ. # 28.08.43 T SS M-111


Romanian:

D Peles 5708 rom. + 15.08.41 T SS SC-211
D Alba Iulia 5708 rom. # 18.04.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Suceava 5695 rom. + 20.04.43 T SS S-33
D Ardeal 5695 rom. # 11.06.42 T SS A-5
D Carpati 4336 rom. + 10.10.42 T SS SC-216
D Sulina 3495 rom. + 29.05.42 T SS A-3
D Cavarna 3493 rom. + 02.12.41 M
D Romania 3157 rom. + 11.05.44 T MTB TKA-353
T Oituz 2628 rom. + 01.09.44 germ. SS U-23
D Danubius 1489 rom. + 09.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Durostor 1309 rom. + 12.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
lighter War 1000 rom. + 09.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
lighter Dunarea I 1505 t rom. + 18.07.43 T SS M-111
lighter CNR 1468 1332 t rom. # 29.07.43 M SS L-4, + 11.04.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
lighter Vistulia 500 rom. + 08.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
lighter Basarabia 500 rom. + 09.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF


Italian:

T Superga 6154 ital. + 30.09.41 T SS SC-211
T Tampiko 4959 1908 ital.
T Maya 3867 ital.
T Celeno 3741 1899 ital.
T Torcello 3336 1892 ital. + 03.11.41 T SS SC-214
T Arka 2238 ital. + 26.10.42 T brit. SS
T Albaro 2104 1911 ital.


Hungarian:

D Kolozsvar 1200 hung. + 1943 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Ungvar 1031 hung. + 09.11.41 M
D Kassa 1022 hung.
D Tisza 961 hung. = 12.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Seged 594 hung.
D Magyar Vitej hung.
D Budapest 493 hung. # 06.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF


Bulgarian:

D Shipka 4159 bulg. + 15.09.41 M SS L-4
D Shipka 2304 bulg. + 15.09.41 T SS L-4
D Tsar Ferdinand 2141 bulg.
D Evdokia 706 bulg. + 1943 AIRCRAFT CHF
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Victor
Posted: July 10, 2003 05:30 pm
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I have some comments regarding the list of Romanian ships:

Suceava had 6846 tons.

Cavarna had 3495 tons.

Romania had 3152 tons. It was not sunk by a TB, but by VVS-ChF aircraft. At 0752,the ship was hit by bombs off the coast at Kerson and the ammunition exploded setting the ship on fire. The crew and the passengers were saved.

Danubius was sunk also on 11.05.44. 8 minutes after Romania exploded, at 0800, several bombs hit Danubius, which was just unloading ammunition for the troops holding the beachhead. It went up in seconds. Very few survivors.

The barges Vár (or Vát) and Basarabia were German (many Romanian ships had been leased to the The Germans; they had a German crew and flag). I also found them mentioned with 800 tons, not 500.

I also found absolutely no mention of Vistulia, Dunarea-1 and CNT 1468.

PS: For Danubius I can give you data about the ship, owner, military capacity etc. , if you want.
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Dénes
Posted: July 10, 2003 06:21 pm
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Corrections of a couple of spelling errors (accent marks are ignored):

Szeged
Magyar Vitez

Dénes
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Sergey
Posted: July 11, 2003 07:17 am
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Many thanks for corrections!

Victor, you wrote: “Suceava had 6846 tons.”

What sources you use?
Such tonnage specifies and dr. J. Rohwer, however in the registers vessels Peles, Ardeal, Suceava and Alba Julia are as of the same type cargo-passenger steam vessels.
By the way, have you possibility to look in the book Kolsinski N., Stanescu R. Marina Romana in al II-lea razboi mondial, 1996-1998 ?
Probably, there can find info on these vessels.


You wrote: “Cavarna had 3495 tons.”

I accept your version, as available for me - 3493 BRT - is very close to it.


You wrote: “Romania had 3152 tons. It was not sunk by a TB, but by VVS-ChF aircraft. At 0752,the ship was hit by bombs off the coast at Kerson and the ammunition exploded setting the ship on fire. The crew and the passengers were saved.”

This episode is in detail enough described in the book M. Morozov “Sink all of them?!.. VVS ChF in operation on release of Crimea.” It can be found to the address: http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/blacksea/part_1.htm

The final hit of the heavily damaged and abandoned ship was made by motortorpedoboats:

“At 22:45 boats №353 and №301 (SM-3 has returned because of unserviceability of the motor, and №341 temporarily has lagged behind) have detected at cape Feolent enemy transport by the tonnage about 4000 BRT, well seen in a light of SABs, thrown off our aircrafts. After fulfilment of a series of recovery maneuvers was clarified, that the vessel has no course. At 23:46 №301 and №353 attacked the enemy, and torpedo hit last has achieved. The crews of boats have assumed, that transport drove fuel, as on it a strong fire again has begun. Who could be their victim? From the large share of reliance it is possible to assume, that to it there was a wreck of minelayer Romania, which sunk, on German data, on dawn 12 after a strong fire.”


You wrote: “Danubius was sunk also on 11.05.44. 8 minutes after Romania exploded, at 0800, several bombs hit Danubius, which was just unloading ammunition for the troops holding the beachhead. It went up in seconds. Very few survivors.”

Fragments from the same source:
“All these fluctuatings were reflected in the instructions to the commanders of escorts of 2 turn, which have abandoned Constance within evenings of May 9. By the plan they should evacuate half of remaining forces of the seventeenth army - 25.000 men - in night on May 11. The convoys called Reicher (up to Chersonese have reached tug Teben and three MFP), Profet (transports Helga, Tisza, Danubius, six MFP, gunboat Stihi, patrolship Grafenau, minesweeper and subhunter), Pionier (small tank vessel Dresden and three subhunters), Fliege (tug Lobau, three MFP and three subhunters) and Owidiu (minelayer Romania, transport KT 25, destroyer R. Ferdinand and subhunter). They were recommended "to go to cape Chersonese" in account that the local authorities, or commanders in place will understand, that by him to do. That happened on a peninsula in Constance it was simply heavy to present!…
With dawn of May 11 the aero-marine battle has begun to boil with new force...
A series of new raids has followed after one hour. This time neat hit FAB-100, dropped by one of six Il has called eighth GShAP at 08:53, detonation of an ammunition on a steam vessel Danubius (1489 BRT). The vessel quickly has disappeared underwater …
A little bit later attention of the operators in a Air Force Staff was attracted with an escort Owidiu. At 08:44 it from large height was unsuccessfully bombed by five Il-4 fifth G.MTAP. At 10:50 vessels were catched by 12 Il of forty seventh ShAP, managed to put Romania serious damages. Minelayer has lit up and has lost course. For the commander of an escort were on a bridge of a destroyer R. Ferdinand, was apparent, that at absence of "an air parasol" as Messers or Vokkers, the attempt of rendering assistance to a minelayer quite can reduce in loss of all remaining vessels and ships of a convoy. The followed soon events completely have acknowledged it, that is why, having left for a stern shining Romania, a destroyer, transport KT 25 and hunter Uj 110 continued to leave in western direction.”


You wrote: “The barges Vár (or Vát) and Basarabia were German (many Romanian ships had been leased to the The Germans; they had a German crew and flag). I also found them mentioned with 800 tons, not 500.”

You know other Romanian or German barges used for transportations by the Black sea ?


You wrote: “I also found absolutely no mention of Vistulia, Dunarea-1 and CNT 1468.”

Some info about CNR 1468 you can be found here: (thank, Theo)
http://www.warsailors.com/phorum/read.php?...1&i=5519&t=5505


You wrote: PS: For Danubius I can give you data about the ship, owner, military capacity etc. , if you want.

It would be very desirable.


I make mistake, specifying the Bulgarian vessels. The first line should be read:
D Rodina 4159 BRT bolg. + germ. M

And, certainly, it’s necessary to add a vessel known by all:
D Varna 2141 bolg. + T SS D-4

It would be interesting to find out other three Bulgarian vessels.
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Victor
Posted: July 11, 2003 11:12 am
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QUOTE
Victor, you wrote: “Suceava had 6846 tons.”  

What sources you use?  
Such tonnage specifies and dr. J. Rohwer, however in the registers vessels Peles, Ardeal, Suceava and Alba Julia are as of the same type cargo-passenger steam vessels.  
By the way, have you possibility to look in the book Kolsinski N., Stanescu R. Marina Romana in al II-lea razboi mondial


Well, you mentioned the source yourself :D

QUOTE
You wrote: “Danubius was sunk also on 11.05.44. 8 minutes after Romania exploded, at 0800, several bombs hit Danubius, which was just unloading ammunition for the troops holding the beachhead. It went up in seconds. Very few survivors.”  

Fragments from the same source:


The data was taken from the report on the evacuation operation made by the undersecretary of the Navy, lt. gen. Nicolae Sova, on 15 May 1944.

QUOTE
You know other Romanian or German barges used for transportations by the Black sea ?


Unfortunately no. I only found these because they are mentioned in loss lists in several places. In one place it has 500 tons, in another it has 800 t.

QUOTE
It would be interesting to find out other three Bulgarian vessels.


Sorry, I only found the overall number.

SMR Danubius

Owner: Mate Loevenschau, Triete, Italy, via Giorgio, 20
Built: 1899, Lubeck
Length: 75.99 m
Width: 10.7 m
Drought: 5.8m
Capacity: 1104/1575 tons; metric tons: 2371
Horsepower: 550
Military transport capacity: men: 1000, horses: 150, carts: 100, cars: 30, artillery pieces: 50
Crew: 19
Price: 5,000,000
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Victor
Posted: July 11, 2003 01:47 pm
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Some comments regarding the German ships:

Boy Federsen was hit on 10, but sunk on 11.08.43
I found a mention of Teodorich being sunk on 12, not 22.11.43. It is also mentioned as a 3409 ton ship.
The same for Arkadia. 29 instead of 28.04.43
Wolga-Don 965 tons instead of 956.
The tanker Prodromos (810 tons) was supposedly sunk by artillery fire.

Erzhezog Karl was damaged by aircraft on 2.05.1944
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Dénes
Posted: July 13, 2003 01:58 am
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On the following site, there are details on various Rumanian warships (I don't know how accurate they are, however):
http://www.geocities.com/dangrecu/VaseArm.html

Dénes
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Th. Dorgeist
Posted: July 13, 2003 05:27 am
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Hello Dénis,

http://www.geocities.com/dangrecu/VaseArm.html

is very interesting with many new names.

Naturally one would wish some ships and their whereabouts somewhat more exactly described itself.

Do you know such a thing perhaps also to Hungary and Bulgaria?

In the case of the Romanian warship listing the left cannot Romanian trading vessels be opened, is that everywhere like that?
In the German war diaries to the Danube and to the black sea many Romanian ships are specified which under 100 BRT large were probably.

give did it give in addition perhaps also somewhat?

Beautiful Sunday

Theo
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Sergey
Posted: July 14, 2003 08:34 am
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Victor wrote: Well, you mentioned the source yourself

Unfortunately, I haven’t the book Kolsinski (or Koslinski - what is correct?) N. and Stanescu R. My correspondence friend which has this book approves that there is specified 5695 BRT.
He said also, that Groener gave earlier the tonnage 6786 BRT, remaining parameters specifying as at Ardeal, and in new 8-volume Groener’s work (v.5, p.54) Ardeal - 5695 BRT, and Suceava - 5710 BRT.
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Florin
Posted: September 19, 2003 07:42 am
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QUOTE

It was most likely the German barge Leo, which carried 800 Romanian soldiers and 200 Soviet POWs. It sank on 25 April 1944, following a VVS attack.


Thank you for the answer. I did not check for feedback since June, but following logical considerations and some memories I reached the same conclusion.
Honestly, I don't know in this moment what "VVS" means. My grandfather told me about a first wave of airplanes, at sea level, all of them shut-down. The second wave of bombers arrived at 9000 meters height. The convoy did not open fire on them. On the other side, because of the altitude all ships but Leo were missed by the bombers. (The high altitude bombers were supposed to be Americans. However, this is arguable, in the light of what I learnt in the last years.)
Regards,
Florin :(
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Victor
Posted: September 19, 2003 10:38 am
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VVS=Voyenno-Vozdushnye Sily (eng. Military air force)
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Andreas von Mach
Posted: September 21, 2003 10:28 am
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There was a discussion on tonnage, so I have check from my sources
(I have numerous Lloyd's Registers of the WW II period)

Romanian tonnage
--------------------------
1) Name
2) Displacement metric tons (Lista Vaselor 1942)
3) GRT (LRS 1941/42)
4) NRT (Lista Vaselor 1942+LRS 1941/42)

SMR
-------------------------------------------
Alba Iulia 7920t, 5700grt,3428nrt
Ardeal ? ,5695grt,3425nrt
Balcic 5700t, 3600grt,?
Basarabia 3351t, 6672grt
Bucegi ?, 6672grt,2952nrt
Carpati 7200t ,4336grt,2799nrt
Cavarna ?,3495grt,2022nrt
Dacia 1770t, 3418grt,1364nrt
Durostor 2700t,784nrt
Mangalia ?,3600grt,?
Oituz 3000t, 2686grt,2102nrt
Peles ?,2700grt,3410nrt
Regele Carol I ?,2369,839nrt
Romania 1770t ,3152 ,1328nrt
Suceava 7920t ,6876grt,3426nrt
Sulina ?, 3495grt,2022nrt
Transilvania 3351t, 6672grt,3918nrt

CNR
--------------
Danubius 600t, 1498grt,923nrt

Dor de Mare ? - not in LRS
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Victor
Posted: September 21, 2003 03:07 pm
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The work Marina Romana in primul razboi mondial by Raymond Stanescu and Cristian Craciunoiu, Modelism, 2000 gives the following data on Bucegi (built 1913) 4330 tons

Dor de mare was transformed into a submarine hunter, IIRC.
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Sergey
Posted: November 10, 2003 10:44 am
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Hello Theo,

I have found, that “the damage” of Uj 101 has taken place while translating KTB Konstanza :)
In the original which is in New York this attack of M-35 is indicated as unsuccessful.
I apologize for this error.

Regards,
Sergey
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