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> axis ships and convoys
daveh
Posted: June 18, 2003 11:35 pm
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Did the convoys used by the Axis in the Black sea ever contain vessels from nations other than Germany and Romania eg Italy , Bulgaria, Hungary.

Were Romanian naval vessels ever used to escort none German or Romanian ships?

Were Romanian vessels ever escorted by none Romanian naval vessels?
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Victor
Posted: June 19, 2003 08:47 am
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Yes, they did. Hungary had 7 cargo ships (a total of 3,800 tons) and Bulgaria had 8 ships (a total of 11,000 tons). They were subordinated to the German Command and used to supply the troops on the front. Since Hungary had no warships in the Black Sea and Bulgaria refused to engage its war fleet outside its territorial waters, the escort duties were carried out by the Romanian Royal Navy and by the Kriegsmarine.

Bulgaria lost two ships: the Shipka 2,304 tons on 15 Aug 41 to a mine and the Varna 2,141 tons pn 20 Aug 43 to a submarine. Hungary lost only the Ungvar 961 tons on 9 Nov 41 to a mine.

The Italian tankers only sailed between Istanbul and Constanta, but they were escorted every time by Romanian ships.

The only non-German naval unit that escorted Romanian ships (well in fact they took part in the escort missions, they were not in charge) was a Croat KFK Flotila.
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Posted: June 20, 2003 06:44 am
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Hello Daveh and Victor!

15.09.1941 - bulgarian "Shipka" (2304 t) sank on mine, laid by soviet sub "L-4".

20.08.1943 - bulgarian "Varna" (2141 t) sank by soviet sub "D-4" near Tarkhankut Cape.

Except bulgarian and hungarian vessels some italian ships were lost:

29.09.1941 - italian tanker "Superga" (6154 t) sank by soviet sub "SC-211" near Emine Cape. The ship sank in shallow water, next day the wreck was attacked by "SC-211" again. Two torpedoes destroyed tanker finally.

5.11.1941 - italian tanker "Torchello" (3336 t) sank by soviet sub "SC-214" near Kuruburun Cape.

If somebody interested I have a list of soviet subs successes at Black Sea, also a list of soviet subs losses.
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Victor
Posted: June 20, 2003 11:47 am
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Ships lost by the Axis in the Black Sea to Soviet action: June 1941 - May 1944

Ship/Tonnage/Date/Cause/Country

Peles 5,708 15 Aug 41 submarine Romania
Shipka 2,304 15 Aug 41 mine Bulgaria
Superga 6,154 29 Sep 41 submarine Italy
Regele Carol I 2,369 10 Oct 41 mine Romania
Remorcher dragor B 200 24 Oct 41 mine Romania
Remorcher dragor D 200 25 Oct 41 mine Romania
Theresia Wallner ? 25 Oct 41 mine Germany
Toricello 3,336 5 Nov 41 submarine Italy
Ungvar 961 9 Nov 41 mine Hungary
Vijelia 47 9 Nov 41 mine (explosion of Ungvar) Romania
Viforul 47 9 Nov 41 mine (explosion of Ungvar) Romania
Cavarna 3,495 2 Dec 41 mine Romania
Cordelia 1,354 2 Dec 41 mine Germany
Sulina 3,495 29 May 42 submarine Romania
Sperrbrecher 191 1 July 42 mine Germany
Ankara ? 23 Aug 42 submarine ?
Salzburg 1,742 1 Oct 42 submarine Germany
Oltul ? 6 Oct 42 submarine Romania
Carpati 4,336 10 Oct 42 submarine Romania
Le Proges 511 21 Oct 42 submarine Germany
Suceava 6,846 20 Apr 43 submarine Romania
Arkadia 1,756 29 Apr 43 mine Germany
Birgit ? 12 June 43 aircraft Germany
Boy Federsen 6,689 11 Aug 43 aircraft Germany
Varna 2,141 20 Aug 43 subamarine Bulgaria
Thiesbe 1,782 30 Aug 43 submarine Germany
Thyra 5 ? 25 Oct 43 submarine Germany
Theodorich 3,409 12 Nov 43 submarine Germany
MFP 592 15 Nov 43 submarine Germany
Santa Fe 4,627 23 Nov 43 submarine Germany
Volga-Don 965 25 Nov 43 submarine Germany
KT ? 800 26 Nov 43 aircraft Germany
MFP F580 ? 10 Dec 43 submarine Germany
MFP 566 ? 12 Dec 43 mine Germany
Ossag 2,790 22 Apr 44 aircraft and submarine Germany
Leo (barge) ? 25 Apr 44 aircraft Germany
Junak 444 2 May 44 aircraft Germany
KFK 2324 ? 3 May 44 aircraft Germany
MFP 132 800 6 May 44 Germany
Prodromos 810 9 May 44 artillery Germany
Gunter 300 9 May 44 artillery Germany
Basarabia 500 9 May 44 Germany
Totila 2,773 10 May 44 aircraft Germany
Theja 3,600 10 May 44 aircraft Germany
Romania 3,152 11 May 44 aircraft Romania
Danubius 1,489 11 May 44 aircraft Romania
Helga 2,200 11 May 44 aircraft Germany
Durostor 1,309 12 May 44 submarine and aircraft Romania
Geisereich 712 12 May 44 aircraft Germany
UJ 315 125 18 June 44 mine Germany
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Victor
Posted: June 20, 2003 12:23 pm
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Toricello missed the rendezvous with the Romanian destroyers and was an easy prey for SC-214. Ironically, the same sub sank 3 days later when it was trying to get close to the Czar Ferdinand and Carpati cargo ships and it hit a mine from the barrage launched by the NMS Regele Carol I in October 1941.

Kirill please do post the list of Soviet sub losses and kills. I have info on several attacks and which sub was responsible for the sinking, but the list is not complete.
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Kirill
Posted: June 20, 2003 10:19 pm
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Hello again Victor!

You wrote:
[quote="victor"]Toricello missed the rendezvous with the Romanian destroyers and was an easy prey for SC-214. Ironically, the same sub sank 3 days later when it was trying to get close to the Czar Ferdinand and Carpati cargo ships and it hit a mine from the barrage launched by the NMS Regele Carol I in October 1941.

Really "SC-214" was sunk only 19.06.1942 by italian torpedo cutter "MAS-571" near Ajtodor Cape. Two mans from crew survived the attack and were picked up by italians.

Soviet subs losses in Black Sea 1941 - 1944:

?.1941 - "SC-206" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 22.06.1941. Probably was sunk by romanian ships 9.07.1941 near Mangalia.

?.1941 - "M-58" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 16.10.1941. Probably sank on mine near Konstanza.

?.1941 - "M-59" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 26.10.1941. Probably sank on mine near Sulina.

?.1941 - "M-34" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 28.10.1941. Reason of loss unknown.

11-13.11.1941 - "S-34" sank on mine near Shabler Cape.

25.11.1941 - ? - "SC-204" missed in Black Sea. Reason of loss unknown (may be romanian mine or bulgarian aircraft?). The wreck of "SC-204" was founded in 1984.

?.1941 - "SC-211" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 14.11.1941. Probably sank on mine near Varna.

?.1941 - "SC-212" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 11.12.1941. Sank on romanian mine near Fidonisi Island. The wreck was founded in 1976.

?.1942 - "SC-210" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 12.03.1942. Probably sank on romanian mine near Shabler Cape.

19.06.1942 - "SC-214" sank by italian torpedo cutter "MAS-571" near Ajtodor Cape.

26.06.1942 - "A-1" and "D-6" destroyed by crews at Sevastopol (they were in repair from the beginning of war).

?.06.1942 - "S-32" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 26.06.1942. Probably sank by german aircraft 26.06.1942 on route Novorossijsk - Sevastopol.

22-25.08.1942 - "M-33" sank on two mines of S-33 mine barrage near Odessa. Raised in 1951.

?.1942 - "SC-208" lost in Blck Sea. Missed from 23.08.1942. Probably sank on romanian mine between Konstanza and Sulina.

23-26.09.1942 - "M-60" sank on mine of mine barrage S-33 near Odessa. Raised in 1951.

1.10.1942 - "M-118" sank by german aircraft and romanian gunboats after the sinking of german steamship "Salzburg".

?.1942 - "SC-213" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 28.09.1942. Probably sank on romanian mines or sank by german submarine hunter UJ-80 14.10.1942.

?.1942 - L-24 lost in Black Sea. Missed from 12.12.1942. Probably sank on mine of mine barrage "S-15" near Kaliakria Cape.

?.1942 - "M-31" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 14.12.1942. probably sank 17.12.1942 by german subhunter "UJ-80" at Zhebriana Bay.

6.08.1943 - "SC-203" was sunk by italian sub "CB-4" near Sevastopol.

?.10.1943 - "A-3" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 22.10.1943. Probably was sunk 28.10.1943 by romanian ships near Tarkhankut Cape.

?.12.1943 - "D-4" lost in Black Sea. Probably sank 4.12.1943 by german UJ-102 and UJ-103 near Uret Cape. "D-4" attacked german MFP F-566 (torpedoes missed) and then was sunk by german U-jagers.

4.01.1944 - "M-36" lost in accident during speed trials near Kobuleti.

17.01.1944 - "L-23" sank by UJ-106 near Tarkhankut Cape after sub unsuccessfully attacked this ship.

?.1944 - "SC-216" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 6.02.1944. Probably sank on german mine barrage S-77 or sank by german subhunters UJ-103 and UJ-106 near Tarkhankut Cape 17.02.1944.

?.1944 - "L-6" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 11.04.1943. Probably was sunk 16.04.1943 by UJ-115 and german aircraft or 21.04.1943 by UJ-104 or 19.04.1943 by UJ-103.

Total: 27 subs were lost from 62 (43,55 %)

List of soviet subs successes I'll post later when I verify some points.
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Victor
Posted: June 21, 2003 05:38 am
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Then I guess it was the S-32 then, which sank in the minefield? Anyway, I will start comparing the list with Romanian claims
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Victor
Posted: June 21, 2003 11:24 am
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Here is what I was able to find so far:

SC-211 hit a mine near Varna and sank around 30.11.1941 (from the barrage launched by NMS Regele Carol I in October 1941 during Operation Varna.

M-34 was sunk on 01.12.1941 by NMS Regele Ferdinand and NMS Marasesti at the border of Bilgarian-Romanian territorial waters (the two ships claimed a Maliutka class sub, and this one could be it)

M-59 hit a mine in the vicinity of Sulina around 30.11-01.12.1941

SC-210 was most likely sunk by Remorcherul dragor A and NMS Viscolul on 05.04.1942 at 0930.

SC-208 was probably sunk by NMS Regele Ferdinand on 16.09.1942, when the Romanian destroyer claimed a Sciutka class sub 20 miles South of Cape Sarich at 0748-0753

I found a mention about L-5 , which was supposedly lost around 21-26.09.1942, probably because ofa mine.

M-118 was sunk by NMS Ghiculescu and NMS Stihi on 1.10.1942;the German BV-180seaplane only spotted the sub, it did not sink it. The Salzburg was carrying 2000 Soviet POWs. Only 132 survived.

According to another source the sub sunk by the Italian CB-4 was SC-207 and the episode happened on 28.08.1943

A-3 was sunk by Uj-117 and 3 KFKs on 28.10.1943
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Florin
Posted: June 22, 2003 07:48 am
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Hi,

My grandfather (member of a Romanian mountain unit), while evacuated from Crimea, was on a ship who was sunk in April 1944. He survived and he was rescued, after floating one night on the surface of the Black Sea.
I cannot tell you the name of the ship and the exact day. My grandfather died 23 years ago. I was child when I heard the story.
Sincerely,
Florin
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Kirill
Posted: June 22, 2003 01:02 pm
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Victor, you wrote: "Then I guess it was the S-32 then, which sank in the minefield?"

S-32 was lost in June 1942.

I think you mean S-34, not S-32.

S-34 was lost 11-13.11.1941 on mine. Two submariners survived and could got out from the sunken sub and they went on the bulgarian shore 14.11.1941 near Sozopol city. But then they both died. Their corps were founded by bulgarian police (some photos and article about S-34 (In Russian language) you can find at http://www.town.ural.ru/ship/ship/s34.php3).

You also wrote: "SC-211 hit a mine near Varna and sank around 30.11.1941 (from the barrage launched by NMS Regele Carol I in October 1941 during Operation Varna."

What's your source? Russian sources says following about this submarine:

14.11.1941 - went to the position near Varna. Missed. In September 2000 near St. Atanas Cape (during the war the name of this cape was Akburnu Cape) the wreck of "SC"-class sub was founded. Except "SC-211" no other subs were lost in this area. The wreck was dived and divers saw following: first compartment was destroyed completely, second compartment was partly damaged. It's not clear what reason could bring so big damages. In this area was laid romanian mine barrage S-18, but this barrage consisted from DMA mines with weight of explosives 30 kgs. This mines couldn't damaged the sub so heavily. Exact date of loss "SC-211" unknown.

"L-5 , which was supposedly lost around 21-26.09.1942, probably because of a mine".

Really L-5 survived the war.

"According to another source the sub sunk by the Italian CB-4 was SC-207 and the episode happened on 28.08.1943"

"SC-207" survived the war.

During the war in Black Sea were lost only 27 subs. All other survived.
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Victor
Posted: June 23, 2003 07:56 am
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QUOTE
I think you mean S-34, not S-32


Yes, it was a typing error

QUOTE
What's your source? Russian sources says following about this submarine:
14.11.1941 - went to the position near Varna. Missed. In September 2000 near St. Atanas Cape (during the war the name of this cape was Akburnu Cape) the wreck of \"SC\"-class sub was founded. Except \"SC-211\" no other subs were lost in this area. The wreck was dived and divers saw following: first compartment was destroyed completely, second compartment was partly damaged. It's not clear what reason could bring so big damages. In this area was laid romanian mine barrage S-18, but this barrage consisted from DMA mines with weight of explosives 30 kgs. This mines couldn't damaged the sub so heavily. Exact date of loss \"SC-211\" unknown.


During Operation Varna (8-21 October 1941) the Romanian minelayers NMS Murgescu, NMS Dacia and NMS Regele Carol I launched 1,300 anti-submarine contact mines, of German origin. The source mentions a quantity of explosives over 100 kg. There were 7 barrages laid: Burgas-Sozopol, Cape Emine, South Varna, North Varna, SE Cape Caliacra, Cape Sabla and South Mangalia.

NMS Carol I was lost on 10 October along with 21 sailors, as it hit a mine launched probably by L-4.

On 30 November 1941, a convoy made up of Czar Ferdinand and Carpati left from varna. As the convoy was forming, a Sciutka class tried to close in, but it hit a mine. I suppose it was the Sc-211. My source gives Sc-214, but it is probably a printing error. IMO, Sc-211 fits very well in this story.

QUOTE
Really L-5 survived the war.


Ok. I was just double-checking. Generally the source where I found this is well informed on the ChF and it has several quotes from books written by Soviet submariners.
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Victor
Posted: June 23, 2003 07:57 am
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QUOTE
My grandfather (member of a Romanian mountain unit), while evacuated from Crimea, was on a ship who was sunk in April 1944. He survived and he was rescued, after floating one night on the surface of the Black Sea.  
I cannot tell you the name of the ship and the exact day. My grandfather died 23 years ago. I was child when I heard the story.


It was most likely the German barge Leo, which carried 800 Romanian soldiers and 200 Soviet POWs. It sank on 25 April 1944, following a VVS attack.
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daveh
Posted: June 23, 2003 06:08 pm
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Very interesting discussion.

Is any of the information being used based on Jurgen Rohwer's work on allied submarine attacks?. If not would it be useful to post details from there?.

Are any of the sources being quoted available in English?

ever hopeful :)
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Victor
Posted: June 23, 2003 07:05 pm
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QUOTE

Is any of the information being used based on Jurgen Rohwer's work on allied submarine attacks?. If not would it be useful to post details from there?.  

Are any of the sources being quoted available in English?


Not my sources. Only Romanian ones.
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Kirill
Posted: June 29, 2003 03:35 pm
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One addition to soviet subs losses:

22.09.1943 - "M-51" sank (reason - accident during speed trials) near Ochamchire.
8 submariners died. 25.09.1943 raised, later repaired.
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