Who was most successful in tank design?

[dragos]

[quote]At the battles in the Kursk region (July-August 1943) and the Dnjepr Bridgehead (September-November 1943) the 656. sPJRgt destroyed 654 soviet tanks. During the Kursk operation, they lost 39 Elephants/Ferdinand, during the Dnjepr operation they only lost 8.[/quote]

Where did you get this info ?

[cuski]

[quote][quote]A bit off-topic: Talking about mad tactics remembered me something i've heard a while ago: in Russia there were cases when german tank comanders with Czech 38t tanks incapacited monsters like the T-34 aiming at their turret ring or even in the gun barrel itself.[/quote]

:loool: :loool: :loool:[/quote]


It's true... it happened occasionally, but it had to be more of a fluke than really good shooting... as soon as I get home, I'll post a pic.

[cuski]

[quote]
Where did you get this info ?[/quote]

Combat History of Schwere Panzerjäger Abteilung 653, Karlheinz Münch, ISBN 0-921991-37-1.

[dragos]

Did this book mentions how many Ferdinads were lost due to mechanical failures?

[cuski]

I could only find the losses by cause for the sPJA 654:

501 mine damage
502 mine damage
514 broken off tracks and destroyed road wheel by mines
522 broken off tracks and destroyed road wheels
523 broken off tracks and destroyed road wheels
524 mine damage
531 destroyed by bomb from PE-2
601 broken off tracks on right side from shell hits
602 76mm gun hits
614 <unknown>
623 <unknown>
624 Fgst. Nr. 150090 tracks are destroyed by mines
634 <unknown>
701 hits by 203mm shells
711 <unknown>
712 hit by shell
713 hits by shells
723 hits by shells
724 Fgst. Nr. 150061 hits by shells
731 <unknown>
732 hit by shell and set afire by KS bottle
733 <unknown>
734 broken off tracks
II 01 set afire by KS bottle
II 02 broken tracks right side and destroyed road wheels by mine
II 03 hits by shells and set afire by KS bottle


Assuming that all unknown causes were due to mechanical failures, they are still only 6 out of all 26. Again, keep in mind we are talking about the Elephant and not the Ferdinand. Following a letter from Uffz. Böhm to General Hartmann suggesting improvements of the Ferdinand, measures have been taken thus giving birth to the Elephant.

[dragos]

http://www.battlefield.ru/library/bookshel...es/losses5.html

731 - destroyed by mine

However, these losses where only at Ponyri. I believe many breakdowns and other losses occured days before that.

I think that the German losses are underestimated and the Soviet losses are overestimated, but this is only my opinion.

[petru]

[quote]What suicidal tactics are you talking about ?[/quote]

I was thinking more at the closing in under enemy fire. The Russian tanks were going full speed ahead in order to close in on the Tigers or Panthers in order to be able to deliver a successful shot. It generated heavy losses in tanks, and the results did not justify the losses.

[dragos]

[quote]It generated heavy losses in tanks, and the results did not justify the losses.[/quote]

I would not say that. Remember that the losses for the Germans did not mean the same for the Soviets. Unlike Germans, they could afford to lose tanks.

[C-2]

And crews

[cuski]

[quote]
However, these losses where only at Ponyri. I believe many breakdowns and other losses occured days before that.[/quote]

They may as well be (note that the link you provided includes losses from both SPJA 654 and 653 - and does not list the time period.

[quote]I think that the German losses are underestimated and the Soviet losses are overestimated, but this is only my opinion.[/quote]

I doubt that things really stand that way... It's a known fact that the russians lost 11 million people during that period. Compared to the germans's 3.25 million.

[Florin]

[quote][quote]......
Not all Middle-Easterners are illiterate. Remember that when in Western Europe roamed the semi-barbaric Christian knights, in Baghdad flourished a very sophisticated culture. The classical works were passed on to the West mostly through the Byzantine and Arab writers.[/quote]

that was then, now is now. you cannot say that today the mongolians are the best fighters in the world simply because 700 years ago they were....[/quote]

Indrid, Victor is right. And he happens to be right not only about the past, but also about the present. The only problem is that many brilliant Muslim people leave their native countries to work and live on the North American continent, or in a lesser extent in Western Europe.

Like the Indians. Like the Chinese. Like the Russians. Like the Romanians. Or, in less words, like the rest of the world.

[Florin]

As this thread is dedicated to tank technology...

Considering how many Tiger I and Tiger II tanks, or Jagdtiger and Ferdinand heavy assault cars were stopped from action just by hitting the tracks, while the armor was not penetrated, I am sincerely surprised that the Germans did not develop design solutions for a better track protection.

I am even more surprised, as myself I have 2 ideas about this.

(Today all the tanks matter is less important. Today so many ways were developed to destroy tanks, especially from airplanes or helicopters, that is simply suicidal to be a tank crew member, anyway.)

PS: OK, Dragos, your color figures about how many tanks of each type were available in June 1941 convinced me.

[Florin]

Just repeated the previous. (Double click; sorry :roll: )

[Florin]

[quote][quote]A bit off-topic: Talking about mad tactics remembered me something i've heard a while ago: in Russia there were cases when german tank comanders with Czech 38t tanks incapacited monsters like the T-34 aiming at their turret ring or even in the gun barrel itself.[/quote]

:loool: :loool: :loool:[/quote]

Maybe it is funny, but the German propaganda highlighted at least one case of a German ace in tank combat, in 1941, which claimed that after 3 ineffective 37 mm rounds shot in a turret of KV-1, the 4th hit the gun barrel and incapacitate the tank.
One questionable thing... When did the guy have time to shoot 4 rounds... It should be wiped out before the 3rd...

Eventually I believe "von Maybach". Because I know at least 2 stories about superior tanks stopped by being hit in the turret ring. They just happen to be German!

First case in North Africa, in 1942. One of the first Tiger-I the Allied could see simply made a carnage in the British tanks: most of the shells fired by the Tiger entered through the front armor of the British tanks, exit through the rear armor, and continued to go! But the British tanks were as many as ants, and one succeeded a lucky strike in the turret ring. The German crew abandoned the tank - almost intact. It is the story of the Tiger-I intensively studied by the Allies. King George VI and Churchill entered personally in its turret, just by curiosity.

Second case: Normandy, July 1944. This time a Tiger II, again outnumbered, made the same carnage in the British tanks. As this Tiger II was with Porche turret (like the first 100 produced), it allowed a "shell trap" for a lucky strike in its turret ring. This German crew also abandoned the tank, almost intact. So again the Allied engineers were given something to do - to study and learn.

[Florin]

[quote]speaking about the quality of tank crews, have you guys seen that LIFE magazine issue that starred on the cover an israeli tank crew. what was particular about them was the fact that one of them had two doctorates, other 3 had only one and the "worst " of them had only a master degree. and you wonder how they could fight and win against the illiterate hordes of the mid-east :loool:[/quote]

Indrid, I am starting from the idea that it is true. This means the crew members of that tank really had that intellectual background.
However, it is still propaganda, because it is a "hand picked" crew. This I also can understand, because when you want to make propaganda for yourself you show the best of what you have.

PS: Sometimes you may be too smart to show how tough you are. :wink:
Like the Japanese. After they built the 2 biggest battleships of the World War II (each of 70,000 tons, each with 3 pieces of 450 mm), they presented photos of a cruiser (not even a battleship) for publicity! And the British and the Americans continued to sleep their dream about the mentally handicapped little yellow guys!