Romanian Military History Forum - Part of Romanian Army in the Second World War Website



Pages: (2) 1 [2]   ( Go to first unread post ) Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

> Your view: The best Romanian historical books, The best, the 2nd best, the 3rd best
Radub
Posted: November 13, 2014 09:03 am
Quote Post


General de corp de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1670
Member No.: 476
Joined: January 23, 2005



There is not a shadow of a doubt that communist "historians" manipulated and changed truth to fit in with the Communist propaganda. Remember how, when we were in school, we were told that WW2 started for Romania on 23 August 1944? We were never taught in school about the Focsani Armistice in WW1. But we got tons of Horia, Closca si Crisan, Mihai Viteazul (without a mention of the wider "Long War" context). That is gross manipulation by communist authorities. Often, poetic licence ("Scrisoarea a III-a", "Apus de soare" etc) were treated as "transmisiuni in direct" from the past and lines (often pure fantasy) from such works of fiction are regularly quoted as "fact". Nationalism cliches were used by communists as a "unification tool" to bring people "strans uniti in jurul...". You MUST take everything with a grain of salt.
Denes cannot help the fact that he was born in a Hungarian family. But in his work he has demonstrated many times that he is a friend of Romania. Sometimes he tells a truth that hurts, but you must understand the distinction between reporter and perpetrator.
Radu
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Daniel Focsa
Posted: November 13, 2014 05:59 pm
Quote Post


Caporal
*

Group: Members
Posts: 103
Member No.: 3365
Joined: August 06, 2012



The greatest romanian historians had national views. Beginning with Scoala Ardeleana, continuing with XIXth and XXth centuries: Xenopol, Parvan, Iorga, Gh Bratianu, CC Giurescu, PP Panaitescu, V Dumitrescu, they were all nationalists. We musn't blame national and patriotical views in historiography. I don't like Boia at all.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Radub
Posted: November 13, 2014 06:17 pm
Quote Post


General de corp de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1670
Member No.: 476
Joined: January 23, 2005



Nationalism is a "feeling", history is a "human science". Best historians rely on science not feelings.
Radu
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Daniel Focsa
Posted: November 13, 2014 10:36 pm
Quote Post


Caporal
*

Group: Members
Posts: 103
Member No.: 3365
Joined: August 06, 2012



QUOTE (Radub @ November 13, 2014 06:17 pm)
Nationalism is a "feeling", history is a "human science". Best historians rely on science not feelings.
Radu

I have mentioned the names of the greatest romanian historians.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Radub
Posted: November 14, 2014 08:37 am
Quote Post


General de corp de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1670
Member No.: 476
Joined: January 23, 2005



Never confuse "patriotism" with "nationalism".
Radu
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Agarici
Posted: November 14, 2014 05:42 pm
Quote Post


Maior
*

Group: Members
Posts: 742
Member No.: 522
Joined: February 24, 2005



QUOTE (Dénes @ November 13, 2014 06:00 am)
QUOTE (Agarici @ November 13, 2014 03:43 am)
The book from which you presented the excrept is written by a Hungarian historian (judging by the name - I never heard about him) and published by an American publishing house. So, what exactlly makes it Romanian?? Would you mind to ellaborate a bit on that?

The Author was born in Rumania (Timisoara), and graduated from the Babes-Bolyai University in Cluj, History Department, in 1984 (thus he is part of the group of 'new generation of historians' from Cluj you were referring to earlier). In his book he is referring to Ottmar Trasca several times, whom you also mentioned often, in good terms.

Gen. Dénes

P.S. Please disregard actual politics, don't deviate from the topic. I am not very familiar with the current events, and it does not matter.
All I was emphasising with that particular occurrence I stumbled upon these days that others, in Rumania, also use the term 'national communism' in Rumania you vehemently object. There must be many more similar samples.

I never objected to the term, I only said that it is unscientific or unsubstantiated, or to put it otherwise, as scientific as the article indicated by you, with “şoşonari”, “Ghiţă TV”, etc. There were some obvious nationalistic overtones in the PROPAGANDA of the Romanian and Hungarian communist regimes in 1970s and 1980s, but without ANY connection with, and certainlly not to the degree of what a national-communist REGIME could have meant. Those propaganda messages had obviously to do with the attempt to legitimize two declining regimes, perhaps in two opposite directions.
Now, you said that you have experienced the national-communism yourself. Unfortunately for both of us, I lived through that too. And I remember quite well the power shortages, the scarcity of goods in stores, the surrealistic (1984-like) propaganda and all the misery, which affected the entire population, including the 8% Hungarian minority. The much-advertized systematization of the villages and cities was still much in the planning stage in 1989, and where put at work (extensively in Bucharest, for example) it affected almost exclusively trademarks (religious, historical) of the Romanian culture. And, as I lived in Cluj, which by that time had between 20-25% Hungarian inhabitants, I also remember that (mention - I’m referring to the late ’80, the worse years of the regime):
- All the schools, from elementary to high school, had Hungarian-language classes. They learn everything in Hungarian, least (in the late years of the decade) geography and history. Plus, there was an all Hungarian-language high-school (Brassai Samuel), to which one Romanian-language class was added, to the discontent of some Hungarian teachers and students. Some high-schools, after the model of the university in Cluj, had Romanian-Hungarian names, or rather Hungarian-Romanian. Thus, my own high-school was named Ady-Sincai (Ady Endre, Gheorghe Sincai).
- The "Babeş-Bolyai" University had Romanian and Hungarian lines of study
- ONE of the TWO daily newspaper, edited under the aegis of the Communist administration, was in Hungarian (“Igaszag”, the Romanian language one being “Făclia”). To that we have to add various literary/cultural publications in Hungarian, both local and national.
- From the two state theater/opera houses, one was Hungarian, regularly staging plays and operas.
- Until its closure, in 1985 the regional radio studio (radio Cluj, emitting since 1954) aired regular broadcasting in Hungarian
- Part of the broadcasting of the national television Channel 1/Programul 1 (on Mondays and Wednesday) were in Hungarian, al least until diminishing the daily program to 2 (two) hours, dedicated mainly to propaganda for the Ceauşescu family and Romanian Communist Party
- Several of the members of nomenclature (way fewer than in 1950s, when the Party leadership in Transylvania was, in a disproportionate measure, provided by Hungarians) were members of the Hungarian minority

Now, I can hardly belive that Denes had memory problems in recalling these realities, or that they were in any way different in Braşov than in Cluj. All it remains, being confronted with his persistence in his error, is to ask about his good faith in the matter. Or to think that he failed to understand what a regime/system means. And, digressing a little bit and talking about a nationalist/fascist regime in Hungary, these quotations were from 1919-1920, not from 1940. See a theory about the “untermescch”, at scale:
http://www.historia.ro/exclusiv_web/actual...-maghiara-paris

PS: Now, talking about an assertion which one of Denes favourite Romanian/Hungarian historian (Mr. Beni L. Balogh, using pretty much in the same style as the other favourite, Mr. Negrutiu, the author ao the above-indicated piece of "jurnalism”) does not bother to argue – and that enlightens me of his quality as an historian: “In effect, the entire Hungarian nation was accused of irredentism and nationalism”, it denotes not only the dubious professional quality but also the lack of social responsibility of this author. Unlike in the case of the link provided above, this was never the case. I own a copy of the much-blamed “Teroarea horthisto-fascista in NV Transilvaniei”, written by Muşat and Ardeleanu, allegedly the preferred historians of the Regime, printed at Editura Politică. I can put it at the disposition of anyone interested, and I can guarantee that, notwithstanding the propagandistic mesages and title, there is no sign of the slightest insult to the Hungarian NATION.

PPS: if Mr Balogh happens to be a supporter of the "democratic" Hungarian premier and/or his party, (or of the Romanian/Hungarian "hero"", Mr. Tokes) please let me know, in this case I will refrain from any further questions regarding him.

This post has been edited by Agarici on November 16, 2014 01:08 am
PMEmail Poster
Top
Daniel Focsa
Posted: November 14, 2014 07:37 pm
Quote Post


Caporal
*

Group: Members
Posts: 103
Member No.: 3365
Joined: August 06, 2012



QUOTE (Radub @ November 14, 2014 08:37 am)
Never confuse "patriotism" with "nationalism".
Radu

Iorga was not only a nationalist, but the father of romanian nationalism :D
In 1940, little time before he died, he was still publishing antisemit articles.
But of course, you may ignore this.... .

Also, the terme "national-comunism" is not very clear for me.

I agree with Agarici.

This post has been edited by Daniel Focsa on November 14, 2014 07:46 pm
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Radub
Posted: November 14, 2014 08:38 pm
Quote Post


General de corp de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1670
Member No.: 476
Joined: January 23, 2005



QUOTE (Daniel Focsa @ November 14, 2014 07:37 pm)

Iorga was not only a nationalist, but the father of romanian nationalism :D
In 1940, little time before he died, he was still publishing antisemit articles.
But of course, you may ignore this.... .

Well,if you think antisemitism is a good thing, I will leave that to you.

A patriot loves everything that he thinks belongs in his/her country, a nationalist hates everything that he thinks does not belong in his/her country.

Radu
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Daniel Focsa
Posted: November 14, 2014 09:11 pm
Quote Post


Caporal
*

Group: Members
Posts: 103
Member No.: 3365
Joined: August 06, 2012



QUOTE (Radub @ November 14, 2014 08:38 pm)

[/QUOTE]
Well,if you think antisemitism is a good thing, I will leave that to you.


I didn't said that.
I only gave you an example which you ignored, about Iorga's political opinions and views. I didn't made values judgements.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Radub
Posted: November 14, 2014 10:01 pm
Quote Post


General de corp de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1670
Member No.: 476
Joined: January 23, 2005



What did I "ignore"? You think Iorga's antisemitism makes him your hero. Fine, if you do not want me to ignore the fact that you admire an antisemite for his antisemitism, I will NOT ignore that. If you want, I will remind you every time. Is that better?
Radu
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Daniel Focsa
Posted: November 14, 2014 10:08 pm
Quote Post


Caporal
*

Group: Members
Posts: 103
Member No.: 3365
Joined: August 06, 2012



Where the f**k I said I admire Iorga for his antisemitism ?

I only gived examples of romanian historians with nationalist views. You said that is not about nationalism but patriotism. I have given an exemple that Iorga was not only nationalist but very nationalist. I didn't said I admire Iorga fot this, I respect him because he was one of the greatest romanian historians. Do not atribuate me please what I didn't say.

Paulescu also was very antisemit and he has a statue in Bucharest. I don't think the statue is for this.

This discussion is about something else. This is what I said:

"The greatest romanian historians had national views. Beginning with Scoala Ardeleana, continuing with XIXth and XXth centuries: Xenopol, Parvan, Iorga, Gh Bratianu, CC Giurescu, PP Panaitescu, V Dumitrescu, they were all nationalists. We musn't blame national and patriotical views in historiography. I don't like Boia at all. "

Mentioning Iorga's antimsemitism was only to prove you he had radical nationalist views. Sorry but you don't seem to see some details, you see things in white and black.

This post has been edited by Daniel Focsa on November 14, 2014 10:11 pm
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Radub
Posted: November 14, 2014 10:47 pm
Quote Post


General de corp de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1670
Member No.: 476
Joined: January 23, 2005



Mr. Focsa, it is true that I do not "pay attention" to every single word you say. :lol: That does not "mean" anything. ;)
Radu
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Daniel Focsa
Posted: November 14, 2014 11:33 pm
Quote Post


Caporal
*

Group: Members
Posts: 103
Member No.: 3365
Joined: August 06, 2012



Ok :P
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Agarici
Posted: November 16, 2014 12:37 am
Quote Post


Maior
*

Group: Members
Posts: 742
Member No.: 522
Joined: February 24, 2005



An issue in which the communist regime did intervene, but it remains to be researched through what means exactly, was that of the Hungarian names. The practice was used systematically and on large scale during the Austrian-Hungarian times in the case of the Romanians, involving the modification of both family and Christian names, and then again in 1940-1944 (in that period, among others, my maternal grand-father became Laszlo :) – but this is a different matter). As bellow, above and next door to my parents’ apartment lived Hungarian families, I know the case quite well. Two of the “heads of the family” had their first names transformed into Constantin, even tough only one was named Karoly, the other’s name being Szilard (!). In the same time a third one, the father of my two best friends from childhood “retained” the Hungarian spelling of Josef, instead of Iosif, for his Christian name. Yet in the case of a forth family I know, they claimed that even the family name was, through administrative means, transformed to sound Romanian.

This post has been edited by Agarici on November 16, 2014 04:03 am
PMEmail Poster
Top
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

Topic Options Pages: (2) 1 [2]  Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

 






[ Script Execution time: 0.0471 ]   [ 14 queries used ]   [ GZIP Enabled ]