Romanian Army & Holocaust Claims

[dragos]

[quote]It's intriguing how lenient you are with your dear Russian commie friends (who stole Bessarabia from you, let's not forget)while you seem surprised that the evil Western world did hold you accountable for allying with and selling oil to the nazis in a world war. Maybe the US should apologize for taking out Ploesti ? I heard there were even some Canadian pilots on those flights. The horror...[/quote]

Yes, you are right saying that the Russian stole Bessarabia. And Romania sold oil for Germany in order to preserve itself as a country while the Soviets were trying to annihilate us. US bombed us because we were fighting against Soviet Union. As a bottom line, here is an excerpt from the book I am publishing in the forum "Romania in World War II": "Finally, it must be mentioned that the Second World War, although it made something really good to humanity through the annihilation of fascism, created the prerequisites for the extension, in Europe and Asia, of an ill-fated totalitarism - the communism. That's why the 9th of May 1945, the Victory Day, as it is celebrated nowadays, must be evaluated in the light of this double aspect, of victory and defeat of liberty and democracy".

[Chandernagore]

What is pityfull is how the Western allies were completely outmaneuvered politically by Stalin after the end of the war. Not even the Poles could be saved from Communist domination. What a fiasco when you consider that they had the atomic bomb to talk at the table :-(

I can only imagine what Stalin would have asked for if he had the bomb...

[dragos]

Moreover, Chandernagore, before regarding Romania as an aggresive state, read this:
"In the light of post-war decades, the victory on the 9th of May 1945 over Hilter's Germay seems to be less bright. All people now recognize thar fascism was one of the most abominable ideologies within humanity's history. The contempt to the individual and the "inferior races" generated a monstruous system of extermination of those considered to be enemies or "not able" to integrate themselves to the new order imposed by Hitler. The system of labour camps, the "death factories" which worked inside them, the Holocaust, which made millions of innocents victims showed the deep ill-fated character of fascism, especially its Nazi variant. The fight against Nazi Germany mobilised hundreds of milions people from free or occupied countries or controlled by Wehrmacht. Within the sphere of hegemony of the Third Reich, the resistance movement knew unprecedented proportions by that time within the effort of liberation from under foreign occupant. A negative corpse inside the world organism - the fascism - provoked a repulsive reaction which had the character of a unprecedent coalition in history.
Unfortunately, thi coalition was too late constituted in order to hinder the break out of the war by Hitler's Germany. In the historiography of the big conflict of 1939-1945, the Swedish researcher Walther Hoffer insisted to focus the attention to the correct deffintions used for the beginning of the Second World War. that is to be - in his opinion - "break out", but "unleashment", in order to underline the deliberate character of great conflagration's origin: Hitler wanted, prepared and unleashed the war. By that time, however before the Poland's aggression (1.09.1939) Hitler commited several violations of the Treaty of Versailles and of the European status-quo, without being punished with the deserved sanctions: the introduction of compulsory military service (16.03.1935), the remilitarization of Rhenania (7.03.1936), the annexion of Austria (12.03.1938).
Those powers designed to guarantee the Verailles Treaty, France and Great Britain, not only didn't react to the defence of international legality, but engaged themselves (especially Great Britain) into a diplomacy of appeasement as related to Germany, which started with the German-British Naval Agreement (29.09.1938). The Anglo-French "appeasement" encouraged aggressive Reich's politics and led in the end to the failure of attempts of creating some viable strucutres of collective security in Europe.
In the same period, the Soviet Union's politics proved duplicity: on one hand, it declared that want to take part in the settlemet of a collective security system, on the other, it tried to establish an agreement with the Nazi Germany and prepared the Red Army for a future great war..."
(Romania in World War II 1941-1945, Institute for Operative-Strategic Studies and Military Histroy, Bucharest, 1997)

"Ignorance and propaganda formed most ideas of the nature of the conflict. But as the number of belligerents increased from 1941 onwards, a broad view emerged among the nations fighting the Nazi Germany or Japan that these two countries represented a unique political evil. Conversely, largely as a result of the eloquence of Churchill and Roosevelt, the Allied cause was increasingly seen as a democratic crusade, and a greater tyranny like Stalin's Russia was able to assume a mantle to which it had no possible claim."
The Macmillan Dictionary of the Second World War, London, 1997

In this perspective, the US should appologize to Romania for their actions.

[Chandernagore]

[quote]Moreover, Chandernagore, before regarding Romania as an aggresive state,...[/quote]

Well, you say this, not me.

[quote]In this perspective, the US should appologize to Romania for their actions[/quote]

I don't see why. Quite the contrary.

[dragos]

QUOTE (\"Chandernagore\")
QUOTE QUOTE In this perspective, the US should appologize to Romania for their actions I don't see why. Quite the contrary. Then keep reading...

Chandernagore	Posted: February 15, 2004 09:34 pm
Locotenent colonel Group: Banned Posts: 818 Member No.: 106 Joined: September 22, 2003	[quote="Chandernagore"][quote]Moreover, Chandernagore, before regarding Romania as an aggresive state,...[/quote] Well, you say this, not me. [quote]In this perspective, the US should appologize to Romania for their actions[/quote] This not a perspective in any sense. Trying to imply that the USA are responsible for the rise of Stalinism and, indirectly the fate of Romania, is absurd. Take the responsibilities where they belong. Quite incredible.

Chandernagore	Posted: February 15, 2004 09:37 pm
Locotenent colonel Group: Banned Posts: 818 Member No.: 106 Joined: September 22, 2003	[quote]Then keep reading...[/quote] I did. I just happen to disagree completely with your conclusions.

dragos	Posted: February 15, 2004 09:45 pm
Admin Group: Admin Posts: 2397 Member No.: 2 Joined: February 11, 2003	[quote]This not a perspective in any sense. Trying to imply that the USA are responsible for the rise of Stalinism and, indirectly the fate of Romania, is absurd. Take the responsibilities where they belong.[/quote] The problem is that as the war progressed, the Allies seem to have forgotten the principles for which they have entered the war.

Chandernagore	Posted: February 16, 2004 01:54 pm
Locotenent colonel Group: Banned Posts: 818 Member No.: 106 Joined: September 22, 2003	[quote]The problem is that as the war progressed, the Allies seem to have forgotten the principles for which they have entered the war.[/quote] As far as I know no one of the allied country entered the war exactly for the same reasons so it's hard to put a global behavior sticker on the alliance . But please, elaborate on this.

dragos	Posted: February 16, 2004 02:21 pm
Admin Group: Admin Posts: 2397 Member No.: 2 Joined: February 11, 2003	..."how it was possible that a war whose purpose proclaimed at London, Washington and Moscow were the liberation of the nations forced to serve the German-Italian fascism and the Japanese militarism and the setup of conditions needful for they should be able to choose the desired political regime, could be concluded - as an end - through the enslaving of tens and tens of milion people?" The answer is that both Churchill and Roosevelt have "forgot" the fundamental principle of Clausewitz, according to which "the war means to continue politics through military means". The two politicians, being obsessed by the objective of smashing Hitler's Germany, accorded to the military issue priority over politics.

Victor	Posted: February 16, 2004 02:22 pm
Admin Group: Admin Posts: 4350 Member No.: 3 Joined: February 11, 2003	We are wandering off topic here.

Chandernagore	Posted: February 16, 2004 04:03 pm
Locotenent colonel Group: Banned Posts: 818 Member No.: 106 Joined: September 22, 2003	[quote]..."how it was possible that a war whose purpose proclaimed at London, Washington and Moscow were the liberation of the nations forced to serve the German-Italian fascism and the Japanese militarism and the setup of conditions needful for they should be able to choose the desired political regime, could be concluded - as an end - through the enslaving of tens and tens of milion people?" The answer is that both Churchill and Roosevelt have "forgot" the fundamental principle of Clausewitz, according to which "the war means to continue politics through military means". The two politicians, being obsessed by the objective of smashing Hitler's Germany, accorded to the military issue priority over politics.[/quote] "The liberation of the nations forced to serve the German-Italian fascism and the Japanese militarism". That goal was fulfilled. No one could bring his country to tackle the Soviet Union not because they "forgot" anything but because by that time they had enough of it. Only one of the two evils could be realistically brought down in a single war. They choosed the biggest. I'm sorry that the US didn't declare war on Soviet Union to save Romania. (wait, who was that who declared war to the other ?) But starting to hate someone because he didn't or could'nt help you is a bit excessive. By the same reasoning Romania should apologize to the US for not coming to help the Americans against the British in 1776... How shamefull.

dragos	Posted: February 16, 2004 04:49 pm
Admin Group: Admin Posts: 2397 Member No.: 2 Joined: February 11, 2003	Let's get back to the topic.

Dan Po	Posted: February 26, 2004 02:17 am
Sergent major Group: Members Posts: 208 Member No.: 226 Joined: February 23, 2004	[quote="aerialls"]Wouldn't it be better to call it a Moldavian Holocaust? Even Eminescu has a part of the guilt...the most shovinistic poet weever had and he was unequalled. When you think that Hitler started this bussiness in 42, I wonder from who he got the ideas. Maybe u have to read a book ... "A doua crucificare a lui Eminescu" by Theodor Codreanu. Maybe u have to read more of Eminescu and to understand what he want to say ... and then im not shure if u can call him "shovinistic". Lets be proud aboud Dada and another 3 th class artists .. they was pretty europeans not shovinistic like Eminescu. Yeaah, maybe Eminescu was one of the cause of holocaust as u trying to insinuate. Im shure that Hitler read the Eminescus tales ... is he use to read "Universul" and Scrisoarea III ?

Dan Po	Posted: February 27, 2004 07:13 am
Sergent major Group: Members Posts: 208 Member No.: 226 Joined: February 23, 2004	Sorry the book is "Dubla sacrificare a lui Eminescu" (The double sacrfication of Eminescu) by Theodor Codreanu, Ed Serafimus, Brasov 1999.

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[Chandernagore]

[quote="Chandernagore"][quote]Moreover, Chandernagore, before regarding Romania as an aggresive state,...[/quote]

Well, you say this, not me.

[quote]In this perspective, the US should appologize to Romania for their actions[/quote]

This not a perspective in any sense. Trying to imply that the USA are responsible for the rise of Stalinism and, indirectly the fate of Romania, is absurd. Take the responsibilities where they belong.

Quite incredible.

[Chandernagore]

[quote]Then keep reading...[/quote]

I did. I just happen to disagree completely with your conclusions.

[dragos]

[quote]This not a perspective in any sense. Trying to imply that the USA are responsible for the rise of Stalinism and, indirectly the fate of Romania, is absurd. Take the responsibilities where they belong.[/quote]

The problem is that as the war progressed, the Allies seem to have forgotten the principles for which they have entered the war.

[Chandernagore]

[quote]The problem is that as the war progressed, the Allies seem to have forgotten the principles for which they have entered the war.[/quote]

As far as I know no one of the allied country entered the war exactly for the same reasons so it's hard to put a global behavior sticker on the alliance . But please, elaborate on this.

[dragos]

..."how it was possible that a war whose purpose proclaimed at London, Washington and Moscow were the liberation of the nations forced to serve the German-Italian fascism and the Japanese militarism and the setup of conditions needful for they should be able to choose the desired political regime, could be concluded - as an end - through the enslaving of tens and tens of milion people?"
The answer is that both Churchill and Roosevelt have "forgot" the fundamental principle of Clausewitz, according to which "the war means to continue politics through military means". The two politicians, being obsessed by the objective of smashing Hitler's Germany, accorded to the military issue priority over politics.

[Victor]

We are wandering off topic here.

[Chandernagore]

[quote]..."how it was possible that a war whose purpose proclaimed at London, Washington and Moscow were the liberation of the nations forced to serve the German-Italian fascism and the Japanese militarism and the setup of conditions needful for they should be able to choose the desired political regime, could be concluded - as an end - through the enslaving of tens and tens of milion people?"
The answer is that both Churchill and Roosevelt have "forgot" the fundamental principle of Clausewitz, according to which "the war means to continue politics through military means". The two politicians, being obsessed by the objective of smashing Hitler's Germany, accorded to the military issue priority over politics.[/quote]

"The liberation of the nations forced to serve the German-Italian fascism and the Japanese militarism".

That goal was fulfilled.

No one could bring his country to tackle the Soviet Union not because they "forgot" anything but because by that time they had enough of it. Only one of the two evils could be realistically brought down in a single war. They choosed the biggest.

I'm sorry that the US didn't declare war on Soviet Union to save Romania. (wait, who was that who declared war to the other ?) But starting to hate someone because he didn't or could'nt help you is a bit excessive. By the same reasoning Romania should apologize to the US for not coming to help the Americans against the British in 1776... How shamefull.

[dragos]

Let's get back to the topic.

[Dan Po]

[quote="aerialls"]Wouldn't it be better to call it a Moldavian Holocaust?

Even Eminescu has a part of the guilt...the most shovinistic poet weever had and he was unequalled. When you think that Hitler started this bussiness in 42, I wonder from who he got the ideas.

Maybe u have to read a book ... "A doua crucificare a lui Eminescu" by Theodor Codreanu. Maybe u have to read more of Eminescu and to understand what he want to say ... and then im not shure if u can call him "shovinistic". Lets be proud aboud Dada and another 3 th class artists .. they was pretty europeans not shovinistic like Eminescu.

Yeaah, maybe Eminescu was one of the cause of holocaust as u trying to insinuate. Im shure that Hitler read the Eminescus tales ... is he use to read "Universul" and Scrisoarea III ?

[Dan Po]

Sorry the book is "Dubla sacrificare a lui Eminescu" (The double sacrfication of Eminescu) by Theodor Codreanu, Ed Serafimus, Brasov 1999.