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> Romanian Army & Holocaust Claims
dragos
Posted: February 05, 2004 11:38 pm
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Yet an industrial mechansim of extermination did not exist in Romania. This does not absolves the purges and killings of minorities, but this is not singular among the states involved in war, even those fighting against Axis.
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Najroda
Posted: February 05, 2004 11:52 pm
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Yes, but an "industrial mechanism" that prepared them for the death camps existed. I think most, perhaps all, camps were in Poland, Germany and Austria (probably in this order), but it would be ridiculous to argue that the holocaust only took place there. The holocaust is not just the destruction camps. It is the whole process starting with laws, some people hiding the "subjects", others snitching on them, their apprehension, collection in passage camps or ghettos and transportation to the destruction camps. If this happened, then we have a holocaust, even if the actual extermination took place in a different country. Never mind the tens of thousands that perished before they even got there.
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dragos
Posted: February 06, 2004 12:05 am
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Jews within Romanian administeres territories were not sent to German concentration camps. But there were cases when Romanians took over concentration camps set up by Germans, as at Rezina and Rabnita, after the front moved to the east in 1941.
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Victor
Posted: February 06, 2004 08:06 pm
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don't know... but 200.000 Rumanians from NW Transilvania were also transported in cattle wagons in the south... and nobody died.  
how come an such huge figure?  
I also got to mention that the figure is extracted from the registers of the jewish centers existing in Rumania at that date.


The number of Jews evacuated from Iasi on 30 June 1941 was 4,430. They were loaded into two trains (2,530 in the first one and 1,900 in the second), which were directed to Calarasi. The train ride was normally of about 12 hours. They arrived there on 6 July, after 168 hours. 2,521 died during the trip, because of the lack of water, food and even air.
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septimiu
Posted: February 08, 2004 01:28 pm
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I think there is something true in Kaplan's book. The figures are different from author to author because the objectives are different.

I didn't read Kapaln' book. It is strange that the Jewish authors emphasize the facts about the Iron Guard Rebelion and what was happening in Iasi in June 1941 and there are few words about Dalnik, Bogdanovka, Vapniarka and other places where Romanian Army was in charge. About Dalnik there are a lots of documents.

The issue with Eichmann it is something stupid. See what Alois Brunner(Eichmann deputy) the last big Nazi which Simon Wiesenthal and other Jewish organizations hunted for said about Holocaust.

The fact with us, Romanians is that we are not able to come accross with our past, to recognize and to forgive the crimes that we did. It is easy to admit that we did something. See the horrors in Romanians prison made by comunists during 1947-1962. There were Romanians guards and police officers. It could happenned at Dalnik and in other places on the eastern front as well.
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aerialls
Posted: February 08, 2004 03:08 pm
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[quote]. See the horrors in Romanians prison made by comunists during 1947-1962. [/quote]

there were beatings and humiliating treatment towards some of the inmates... when you use the term "horror" it could be understand ussually in an different way. Be carrefully with the terms you use.

btw.. army personel and officers who fought dedicated to the eastern front campaign were the main subjects.
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septimiu
Posted: February 09, 2004 09:50 am
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"there were beatings and humiliating treatment towards some of the inmates... when you use the term "horror" it could be understand ussually in an different way. Be carrefully with the terms you use."

I don't agree with you. There were much more than simple "beatings and humiliating towards some of the inmates". In "MY" opinion there were horrors and hopefully will never happenned again.

I know that the subject is "Eastern Front". I want to mention that if we could done the "beatings and humiliating treatment" in our prisons and labor camps during 1947-1962 we could done also in 1941-1943 on the Eastern Front.
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dragos
Posted: February 09, 2004 10:27 am
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[quote]I know that the subject is "Eastern Front". I want to mention that if we could done the "beatings and humiliating treatment" in our prisons and labor camps during 1947-1962 we could done also in 1941-1943 on the Eastern Front.[/quote]

This does not necessarily mean Holocaust.
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Dr_V
Posted: February 09, 2004 09:43 pm
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I won't argue about the so called "Romanian holocaust" now, even if I tend to believe that the numbers and facts are severely and repeatedly exagerated in the mass-media today. As I see it, truth is that even if in Romania the jues had suffered, the conditions weren't even nearly as bad as in Germany, thaugh some people would like to make us belive so.

This post is about a fact that I'm not sure was ever made public. My source is my girlfriend, whos grandfather was a witness and participant (sadly he's no longer alive today).

Her grandfather was a "vicar" (a kind of orthodox high priest) in the Romanian church administration. In 1940 the Romanian "Patriarh" (the orthodox equvalent of the Pope) called for all the higher priests at a meeting, without telling them why exactly. When they all gathered, the Patriarh made a speech about the expected persecutions on the jews in Romania. He told them that "The jews belive in the same God as we do, they're our brothers into faith.". Then he discussed the strategys the church has to adopt to protect the Romanian jews as much as possible from the Germans and the natzist followers in Romania.

For what I've learned, the actions of the Romanian church in this matter were substancial, from influencing political decissions as much as possible (in Romania the priests are highly respected by everyone, including military leaders and politicians) to even helping small groups of jews to leave the country (illegaly) or change identity. All priests that could be trusted were discretely instructed to include in their preachings the idea that it's the duty of any christian to love and help the brother jew and to advise the christian believers to be humain with the fellow man regardless of his religion.

To what extent those actions gave the expected results can be debated, but the fact that many priests tried to do something is sure, I've spoke with many elders that told me about that.

One thing is certain: the common Romanian had nothing to do with the idea of exterminating jews and in many cases ordinary people ignored the rules and did what they felt to be the right thing. And as in Romania the government wasn't convinced by the natzi polithics (about the rasial purge at least), the extent of the jew persecutions was far lower than in other places.
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aerialls
Posted: February 10, 2004 06:29 am
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DevanG
Posted: February 10, 2004 09:49 am
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i really don't believe that a holocaust was in romania , sure there were some people deported but from my point of view a part that is played by the institutes for holocaust studies is as a political weapon ... if u say something that we , israel don't like , then u are an antisemite , what happened with the choice of non-believing .. ?
nowadays , israel and the US are wondering why they not that much liked in europe , because during the last 50 years israel has conducted a witch-hunt in this domain .. ( i really believe there was a holocaust in germany though )
sure it's founded , i realize they have lost a great deal of people in those years , but i also understand that the people responsible for this have been dealt with , and another nazi party will not surface again , but and i say again , nowadays , the jewish communities have become something like sacred lambs , if u say something against one , because u really don't like him ( not his minority ) , then u become a general enemy , a madman , a antisemite terrorist ...

now i know that after '47 they have lost their houses , land and everything else , but , that was done by the russians , not by romanians , it was done by a lot of russians and 2 romanian armoured divisons that served under the russians , so why should we 23 million pay for the deeds for 30 k , i mean their money , properties and everything else haven't gone into my pocket , haven't gone into you pocket .. so why should we pay , just because we are romanians , but that is discrimination .. because if these institutes in the study of the holocaust would really do their bussiness , they would know which romanians are responsible and that 600 k jews were not killed in romania ..

ps : i have seen in the last 15 years how this number keeps on growins with each new book of these historians , who just happen to be jews .. so i wonder why do they keep increasing the number ?

btw , has someone here read the 25 protocols of the sion's wisemen .. because if not , u really should ..
just so to see what kind of sacred lambs they are , and that was in the 1870's ..

ps : if u really want to see what how israel was really formed and how in 1917 , the english stole land from the palestinians to form israel , keep on reading ppl ...
did u knew that out of 100 leaders of the 1917 revolution in Russia , 97 were born jews , but some years before the revolution they changed their name to russian one ..
does anyone know that wall street ppl , in us have given most of the money for the 1917 revolution to trotzki ... ?
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Chandernagore
Posted: February 10, 2004 10:50 am
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did u knew that out of 100 leaders of the 1917 revolution in Russia , 97 were born jews


This single sentence epitomize the rest.

"100 leaders of the 1917 revolution in Russia , 97 were born jews"

So what ??? What's your point ? That Jew = Evil ???

Can I play too ? "100 leaders of the 1917 revolution in Russia , 100 where men"

Kill all men !

Are you trying to beat Goebbels at his own game ? Or don't you realize what you are saying ?

Strana Mechty, mmm ? Meet me in a circle of equals !
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DevanG
Posted: February 10, 2004 11:30 am
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what i am trying to say that that is not normal for a revolution which is said to be of the russian people ..
btw , did u knew that leaflets in may areas of the russia where the revolution took place were written in idish .. that is , the leaflets to be read by all comissars ..

so you draq the conclusion .. before the 1900 the jews were persecuted in most corners of europe .. my opinion is that the 1917 revolution , was to make a new state for jews mainly , as the ruling class ( u know the soviet motto , everyone is equal , but some are more equal than others ) ... as many of their comissars and a lot of their rulers were jewish ..

if u think i drew a wrong conclusion please let me know how many churches were actually destroyed by the comunists in the revolution and just how many sinagoges were destroyed ... compare the percentages ...

yes we will meet , i will be in the sky-blue shadow cat .. u know the one with gaus rifle and srm streak missiles ... but first i have to drop laetitzia at the apartment .. she said she'll make wieneze schnitzels ... :D
i suppose u are a true-born so what kind of trial do you want to " discuss " ?

ps : death to the jade falcon ...
ghost bear rulez ...

pps : like i stated in the previous post .. it just takes to say some truth , uncomfortable one .. to pe considered and antisemite , terorit , madman ..
the thing is that i have no love for goebels , the man was a fanatic , who tried everything to get to a higher bureaucratical position .. to be frankly , i don't even know what he said ...

quod erat demonstratum
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Indrid
Posted: February 10, 2004 11:51 am
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nowadays , the jewish communities have become something like sacred lambs , if u say something against one , because u really don't like him ( not his minority ) , then u become a general enemy , a madman , a antisemite terrorist ...



this is true. sadly it is a very nasty bussiness.

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did u knew that out of 100 leaders of the 1917 revolution in Russia , 97 were born jews , but some years before the revolution they changed their name to russian one ..  


please tell me Stalin was not jew :mrgreen:

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has someone here read the 25 protocols of the sion's wisemen .. because if not , u really should ..  
just so to see what kind of sacred lambs they are , and that was in the 1870's ..  


you still believe they were real? because it looked like the work of mediocre minds to me, thing that cannot be atributed to the jewish leadership.

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like i stated in the previous post .. it just takes to say some truth , uncomfortable one .. to pe considered and antisemite , terorit , madman ..  


so you think you are readu to cut the tree down and accept the consequences...
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Chandernagore
Posted: February 10, 2004 12:15 pm
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what i am trying to say that that is not normal for a revolution which is said to be of the russian people ..

The Jewish Russians were part of Russia too. Like the Cossacks.

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btw , did u knew that leaflets in may areas of the russia where the revolution took place were written in idish .. that is , the leaflets to be read by all comissars ...


No, can you post a pic of such a leaflet ? I would like to see one.

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my opinion is that the 1917 revolution , was to make a new state for jews mainly , as the ruling class ( u know the soviet motto , everyone is equal , but some are more equal than others ) ... as many of their comissars and a lot of their rulers were jewish ..


You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However this one is unlikely to be upgraded to historical fact. The myth of the Jewish Bolshevik Conspiration has been worn out by the nazis.

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if u think i drew a wrong conclusion


Yes. You started with this :

if u say something against one , because u really don't like him ( not his minority ) , then u become a general enemy

And then later you forgot the individual ("him") level and proceeded to empty your cartridges on the minority.

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yes we will meet , i will be in the sky-blue shadow cat .. u know the one with gaus rifle and srm streak missiles ... but first i have to drop laetitzia at the apartment .. she said she'll make wieneze schnitzels ... :D
i suppose u are a true-born so what kind of trial do you want to \" discuss \" ?
ps : death to the jade falcon ...
ghost bear rulez ...


Ha ha , Stravag. Jade Falcon rule !! Trial of grievance.

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i have no love for goebels , the man was a fanatic , who tried everything to get to a higher bureaucratical position .. to be frankly , i don't even know what he said ...


Well, just re-read yourself and you will have some idea.
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