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> Romanian Army & Holocaust Claims
Radub
Posted: November 07, 2010 08:56 am
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Well, this was also reported in a number of English-speaking newspapers. I read about it in the Irish Times.
Without getting lost in emotions, the "problem" is that there is a mass grave. Whoever the people buried there are, we are talking about a massacre. No matter how you look at it, it is a tragedy. It still bad to find a mass grave anywhere.
Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on November 07, 2010 08:56 am
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21 inf
Posted: November 07, 2010 01:13 pm
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The it was also at a romanian television at news, yesterday I believe.

"Ordered" subjects, if there are no clues yet....

Also an "ordered" situation: http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinagoga_din_...imleu_Silvaniei If you read about this museum, all is fine. If you go there, you find another thing. Be prepared not to be allowed in the museum if you dont provide your name, surname and adress and you dont present an valid ID document. Don't expect to see there something about local jews deported by germans, who were first gathered there by hungarian authorities in what was one of the largest ghetto from Transylvania under hungarian ocupation since 1940.

Expect in exchange to see a lot of info about romanian atrocities against jews in Romania in ww2, practically almost 80% of the infos exhibited in this museum are about romanian war crimes against jews, and very few if none about hungarian autorities helping to move local jews in the ghetto and about german crimes did against this people. I was there some 4 years ago and this was the situation. I doubt that they exchanged much...

This post has been edited by 21 inf on November 07, 2010 01:26 pm
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MMM
Posted: November 07, 2010 04:57 pm
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@dragos: this Mr. Cioflâncă is very well regarded in the "community of historians" in Iasi's own "Al. I. Cuza" University (you know, the cradle of the legionnaire's movement in the early 20's) and also in Iasi the subject of Antonescu and the holocaust aren't quite "desired": either the light has to be "focused" on the Romanian guilt, or the subject shouldn't be treated at all...
@Radub: a mass grave of only 12 bodies isn't such an uncommon occurence in places where the frontline existed for more than a couple of days; it's not even known whether the bodies are from 1940 or 1944, right? One might even say they were Romanian soldiers executed by the victorious 1944 Red Army!
@21 inf: I don't get it! "Ordered" by whom?!?! How comes that a "competent" person didn't ask the curators questions? I remember going once with a couple of fellow History students at Peles Museum; when the guide learned we were History students, he kinda got scared, although we were in our early 20's and he looked to be 40 or so; in the end, we didn't ask him "trick questions". But in Simleu Silvaniei what will happen if someone will?
LE: Iaşi, also the home of alcohol-champions - as I just watched another female record on TV: 6,8 ppt! :ph34r:

This post has been edited by MMM on November 07, 2010 05:27 pm
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21 inf
Posted: November 07, 2010 05:44 pm
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QUOTE (MMM @ November 07, 2010 04:57 pm)
@21 inf: I don't get it! "Ordered" by whom?!?! How comes that a "competent" person didn't ask the curators questions? I remember going once with a couple of fellow History students at Peles Museum; when the guide learned we were History students, he kinda got scared, although we were in our early 20's and he looked to be 40 or so; in the end, we didn't ask him "trick questions". But in Simleu Silvaniei what will happen if someone will?

MMM, that's why I put the word ordered in "". I can't say who ordered the action(s), but it obvious that from time to time, the subject is "refreshed" against romanians, at least. It was the case of the public campaign in Iaşi in 2004, when in bus stations were big posters saying: " XY, jewish girl, 6 years old, was asssasinated in 194. in Iaşi pogrom, when she was holding in her arms this teddy-bear". The photo of the teddy-bear, with a bullet hole in it, was showed. I saw this kind of posters with my own eyes back in 2004 in Iaşi.

The Yad Vashem report for nothern Transylvania, under hungarian ocupation between 1940-1944 say that jews from this part greatly saluted the restoration of hungarian rule, because they were more culturally and historically bond with Hungary, when they were romanian subjects, they had only comercial and economical interests. They felt they belong more to Hungary than to Romania. The same report points that more jews from this part considered themselves hungarians by spoken language than romanians. So the conclusion might be that jews from at Northern Transylvania saw hungarians as friends. Those "friends" greatly helped germans to ghettoize jews and to assasinate them. The hole image made by the report, who clearly state that Romania was a country with a lot of anti-jew atitude and actions, is that jews ghettoized by hungarians and killed by germans don't point significantly to their executioners, but to romanians, who in this particular case has nothing to do with it. For what was at Iaşi, the guilt must be shared by those who made it, when they are charged for it, were they are charged for it.

I asked the museum's guide what is the purpose of the memorial museum and he said that it was for the local jewish victims. At the end I asked him what is the museum's conection with the declared purpose, cos I couldnt see one. The direction pointed by the museum was romanian war crimes, not hungarian or german, not local jews, but those from Romania. So, "afară e vopsit gardul, înlăuntru leopardul". The guy replied that what I saw is what I saw, if I like it, ok, if I don't, is my problem. I told him my opinion, that is not fair to declare a purpose and to exhibit totally another thing, and I also pointed that at the end of my visit, that I understand also why they needed my identification data. They knew what the general reaction would be from the part of informed people (not the masses who believe everything without thinking) and they wanted to keep some reactions at bay. The odd reaction of the guide came in the situation when I told him almost from the begining that I understand the tragedy of local jews as the part of my family coming from Sălaj was massacred in 1940 by hungarians, loosing one woman aged 34 and a little girl aged 7. He spoke about compasion, but showed nothing about what I said to him, he was indiferent at same romanian tragedz from the same god damn war. I have nothing more to say.
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MMM
  Posted: November 07, 2010 06:54 pm
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And that happens in a museum under whose authority? Local, central (Ministry of Culture) or foreign?
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Imperialist
Posted: November 07, 2010 07:20 pm
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QUOTE (dragos @ November 07, 2010 04:11 am)
This is a shameful example how Romanian press and so called "historians" treats the war crimes

A mass grave was found in Moldavia near Popricani village. The reaction of press is as following

http://www.evz.ro/detalii/stiri/romania-se...tiv-911423.html

"Romania is ultimately pinned on the map of Holocaust"

A so called "historian", Adrian Cioflâncă, working for the Wiesel institute states that:

"Pentru a nu suna foarte abstract, să stabilim din capul locului că vorbim despre oameni nevinovaţi, evrei civili al căror destin a fost curmat brutal într-o pădure."

In order not to be very abstract, we should say from start that we talk about innocent people, Jewish civilans whose destiny was brutally ended in forest.

In the mean time, Romanian prosecutors opened an investigation.

http://www.mediafax.ro/social/schelete-uma...i-video-7693663

Prim-procurorul Prisăcariu a precizat pentru MEDIAFAX faptul că cele 13 cranii nu au urme de gloanţe, care să certifice o execuţie, însă în cauză s-a dispus efectuarea unei expertize antropologice pentru stabilirea naturii fragmentelor osoase, sexul şi vârsta, dacă sunt urme de violenţă şi care a fost cauza decesului.

For now, there is not known the ID of bodies, whether they are civilian or military, whether they executed or not, also the date is not yet exactly established. Yet, some Romanian historian hurry to state that they are innocent Jewish victims shot by Romanian Army in 1941 :angry:

There are eye-witnesses that talk of how Jews were taken in that forest in the summer of 1941, gun shots were heard then the army's vehicles left without the people taken there.
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dragos
Posted: November 07, 2010 07:32 pm
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Possible, but Mr. Cioflâncă should at least wait for the forensic report before making such dramatic statements.
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Imperialist
Posted: November 07, 2010 08:06 pm
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QUOTE (dragos @ November 07, 2010 07:32 pm)
Possible, but Mr. Cioflâncă should at least wait for the forensic report before making such dramatic statements.

Mr. Cioflanca may be looking for some publicity with such big statements but the fact is Romania's guilt for the Holocaust has been already established years ago. Mr. C is not saying something new.
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dragos
Posted: November 07, 2010 08:42 pm
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And since that has been established, for each newly discovered mass grave, suspect number 1 is Romanian Army and the victims are presumably innocent Jewish civilians.

I'm not debating Holocaust here but the professionalism, or better said lack of it, when addressing such findings.

This post has been edited by dragos on November 07, 2010 08:51 pm
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Radub
Posted: November 07, 2010 09:22 pm
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QUOTE (MMM @ November 07, 2010 04:57 pm)
@Radub: a mass grave of only 12 bodies isn't such an uncommon occurence in places where the frontline existed for more than a couple of days; it's not even known whether the bodies are from 1940 or 1944, right? One might even say they were Romanian soldiers executed by the victorious 1944 Red Army!

Actually, the article I read mentioned 100 bodies http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/...740.html?via=mr

You misunderstood what I said. All I said was that irrespective of who is in the mass grave and who did the shooting, mass graves are never good news.

What I find troubling is that the mass grave was found based on witness reports. The same witness reports stated that it was the army who did the shooting and that the victims were Jews. So, on the face of it, the witnesses appear to be right.

Radu
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21 inf
Posted: November 08, 2010 04:03 am
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QUOTE (MMM @ November 07, 2010 06:54 pm)
And that happens in a museum under whose authority? Local, central (Ministry of Culture) or foreign?

I don't think any authority supervise this museum. It was raised exclusevly with private money, donated by jews all over the world. So, this private enterprise make it's own strategy regarding the exhibition.
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Dénes
Posted: November 08, 2010 06:54 am
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QUOTE (21 inf @ November 07, 2010 11:44 pm)
QUOTE (MMM @ November 07, 2010 04:57 pm)
The Yad Vashem report for nothern Transylvania, under hungarian ocupation between 1940-1944 say that jews from this part greatly saluted the restoration of hungarian rule, because they were more culturally and historically bond with Hungary, when they were romanian subjects, they had only comercial and economical interests. They felt they belong more to Hungary than to Romania.

That statement is correct.

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Those "friends" greatly helped germans to ghettoize jews and to assasinate them.

Those "friends" did not act on their own, but on strict German orders, as their country (Northern Transylvania included) was militarily occupied by Hitler's Germany. Before the occupation, no Jews were massacred in Hungarian territory (except for the Novi Sad/Ujvidek events, which started as anti-partisan/sniper flush-out and ended up in a masacre, where Jews were also killed. For that massacre the responsible Hungarian military leaders were tried and sentenced during Horthy's regime, in 1943).

My take on this topic is that criminals have no nationality/ethnicity. They are just that: criminals.

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 08, 2010 06:58 am
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Victor
Posted: November 08, 2010 10:35 am
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QUOTE (MMM @ November 07, 2010 06:57 pm)
@Radub: a mass grave of only 12 bodies isn't such an uncommon occurence in places where the frontline existed for more than a couple of days; it's not even known whether the bodies are from 1940 or 1944, right? One might even say they were Romanian soldiers executed by the victorious 1944 Red Army!

It is also written that Romanian made 7.92 mm shells (CMC and PA) were found in the area, so this kind of narrows down the suspects list. Still, since there are no written documents left about this and thus it is a little early to blame directly the Army as an institution. The Iasi Pogrom was a pretty disorganized action and left room for a lot of personal initiative of the different individuals in the military (with different degrees of attitudes towards the Jewish minority). It would had been better if it was phrased as "Romanian military elements" or something similar.
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21 inf
Posted: November 08, 2010 11:18 am
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@Denes: you are corect, criminals are just criminals, no matter what ethnicity.

It also true that until late ww2, no actions were taken by hungarians in Transylvania against jews. The hungarian prefect of Sălaj county, Josika, presented his demision when he was told what are the planned action against jews, a rare act of protest given by a hungarian representant of hungarian authorities.

Unfortunatelly for romanians from Transylavania administrated by hungarians in ww2, the politics of hungarian elements were not the same as initialy toward jews. Very fast after entering Transylvania, local hungarians suported by hungarian army elements made the mass massacres against romanian civilians at Ip and Trăznea. No polemic intended, just an underlining of duality of man character, seen in other cases, see the case of Josika prefect above.
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dragos
Posted: November 12, 2010 08:34 am
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Another one, this time a director that seems very knowledgeable in history

http://www.historia.ro/exclusiv_web/actual...-mii-mii-oameni

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Regizorul a spus că a descoperit, în urma documentării, că Antonescu a avut o politică împotriva evreilor mai puternică decât cea din Germania de atunci. "În 1941, nu existau lagăre de concentrare naziste, dar, la acea vreme, Antonescu ucisese mii şi mii de oameni. Era un pragmatic. În viziunea sa, populaţia evreiască din nordul României era pro-comunistă şi pro-rusă. Acolo nu a fost vorba de purificare etnică", a mai spus regizorul, în interviul acordat Hanei Rezková.



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