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> Romanian Army & Holocaust Claims
Dénes
Posted: November 12, 2004 03:41 pm
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QUOTE (dragos @ Nov 12 2004, 08:03 PM)
- 132,000 Jews from Northern Transylvania were killed bu Hungarian administration.

- 5,000 Romanian Jews living abroad also died in Holocaust.

Your translation is erroneous and is apparently a spin attempt on the controversial topic.
The 132,000 Jews from Northern Transylvania were not killed by the Hungarian administration, but - with a few exceptions - by the Nazis, outside Hungary.
Remember, Hungary - Northern Transylvania included - was under German military occupation since March 19, 1944. All deportations and executions happened afterwards.

Here is the original text in Rumanian:
QUOTE
aproximativ 132.000 de evrei din nordul Transilvaniei, aflat sub administraţie ungară, şi alţi 5.000 de evrei români care trăiau în afara ţării au fost ucişi în Holocaust.

Correctly:
QUOTE
approx. 132,000 Jews from Northern Transylvania, under Hungarian administration, and a further 5,000 Rumanian Jews living abroad, were killed in the Holocaust.


Lt. Col. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 12, 2004 03:56 pm
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dragos
Posted: November 12, 2004 05:05 pm
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QUOTE
Your translation is erroneous and is apparently a spin attempt on the controversial topic.


Apparently indeed. I accept yor translation, and this thread is about the Romanian Holocaust, not about the Hungarian one, so let's move on.
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dragos
Posted: November 15, 2004 08:47 am
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More news (in Romanian):

Romania assumes Holocaust
http://www.bbc.co.uk/romanian/news/story/2...t_asumare.shtml

Testimonies of Holocaust survivors
http://www.bbc.co.uk/romanian/news/story/2..._survivor.shtml
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dragos
Posted: November 15, 2004 09:04 am
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Interview with Elie Wiesel (in Romanian):

http://www.evenimentulzilei.ro/social/?news_id=171721
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Dénes
Posted: November 22, 2004 08:59 pm
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The complete text of the report (in English and Rumanian) can be found here:
http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/what_n...new-report.html

Col. Dénes
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dragos
Posted: November 22, 2004 09:47 pm
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The report says that Romanian authorities were responsible for the death of 280,000 - 380,000 and Jews in Romania and administered territories.

But how did they come to this number:

- between 45,000 and 60,000 Jews were killed in Bessarabia and Bukovina by Romanian and German troops in 1941 (how many by Romanians and how many by Germans?);

- in Transdnestra, between 105,000 and 120,000 Jews died because of the deportations (but not directly killed by Romanian troops, who may refute the possibility that some may have died because of the Germans before 1944 or because of the Soviet administration after 1944)

- in Transdnestra, between 115,000 and 180,000 Jews were killed, especially in Odessa and Golta and Berezovka counties. The executions in Odessa were carried, according to the known reports, by both Romanian and Germans troops. Why should the entire number must be attributed entirely to Romanians?

- in Iasi, at least 15,000 Jews were killed during the pogrom.

45,000 + 105,000 + 115,000 + 15,000 = 280,000 , and this is the lower figure of Jews killed for which the Romanian authorities and government should be responsible !

I don't agree with this report.
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Dénes
Posted: November 22, 2004 10:44 pm
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I have to agree that the report is not clear enough on the approx. number of Jewish victims killed by Rumanian authorities. Probably, a firm number cannot be established any more. If so, it should be clearly mentioned that the given number were victims of both the Rumanians and Germans (a percentage-wise estimate should have also been given, like "an estimated X% is believed to be killed by Rumanian and Y% by German military and civilian authorities"). Otherwise, most people will simply look at the final figure and imply that the Rumanians alone were responsible for all of the victims.

Col. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on November 22, 2004 10:57 pm
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Chandernagore
Posted: November 23, 2004 01:55 pm
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It may help to have some concrete data but I don't think it's usefull to overreach with it. As much important is the attitude and policies of the governement.
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dragos
Posted: August 02, 2005 12:18 pm
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(IMG:http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/wlc/image/01/01096.jpg)
Jews of the Kishinev ghetto assembled for deportation to Transnistria. Kishinev, Bessarabia, Romania, October 28, 1941. (Georg Westermann Verlag- Werkarchiv Westermann)

(IMG:http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/wlc/image/01/01097.jpg)
Romanian soldiers supervise the deportation of Jews from Kishinev. Kishinev, Bessarabia, Romania, October 28, 1941. (Georg Westermann Verlag- Werkarchiv Westermann)

Source: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
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Jeroen
Posted: June 01, 2009 09:47 am
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QUOTE (Victor @ February 06, 2004 08:06 pm)
The number of Jews evacuated from Iasi on 30 June 1941 was 4,430. They were loaded into two trains (2,530 in the first one and 1,900 in the second), which were directed to Calarasi. The train ride was normally of about 12 hours. They arrived there on 6 July, after 168 hours. 2,521 died during the trip, because of the lack of water, food and even air.

I was a bit puzzled by Mister I C Butnaru rhetorics concerning the Iasi events and trains op page 97 and 98 of his work The Silent Holocaust.
He writes that both all Jews predominated by one single color black.
Wit Yellow stars sewn on their clothes to identify.....

Futher he writes that the Jews from the communities along the railway line to Calarasie that helped them also wore the yellow star, "and each one was asking himself, when will my turn come?"

Now I do remember on this forum somewhere, couldnot find it today, to have read yellow stars or other marks were only orderd to wear for a short periode in Romania/Moldavia/Transnistria(?), not all the time during the WW2, was this correct?
Were they actually worn during the Iasi summer events?

If so was Butnaru not relating to any eye-witness report or photos, or was he?
Or painting this very drama a bit different from historical thruth?

This post has been edited by Jeroen on June 01, 2009 09:49 am
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Victor
Posted: June 09, 2009 05:10 pm
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The wearing of David's star was abolished in Romania in September 1941, so it was in use during the Iasi Pogrom.

It was reestablished in Bukovina, in the Cernauti Ghetto, by general Cornel Calotescu, the governor. It was abolished in 1944 by the general Corneliu Dragalina, who had replaced Calotescu in 1943.
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MMM
Posted: June 10, 2009 12:16 pm
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It is again about the difference between Romania (as the territories between september 1940 and june 1941 - thus, after the territorial losses of 1940) and the re-conquered Romanian territories (Bessarabia and Bukovine) and occupied (Trans-Dnestra). Antonescu also claimed saving the jews form Romania, but not from these territories. The same with NW-Transylvania: it was not during Romanian regime that the deportations were made, but under Hungarian (aka German military occupation, from march 1944; however, not the GErman troops did the "hard work" part...); in the "big picture", all the losses are put into the Romanian account, so to say. IMO, not entirely accurate, but... :(
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soleadd13
Posted: May 11, 2010 10:21 am
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*** deleted by admin ***

This post has been edited by dragos on May 11, 2010 04:44 pm
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bansaraba
Posted: May 11, 2010 11:53 am
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SPAMMER ON BOARD!
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dragos
Posted: November 07, 2010 04:11 am
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This is a shameful example how Romanian press and so called "historians" treats the war crimes

A mass grave was found in Moldavia near Popricani village. The reaction of press is as following

http://www.evz.ro/detalii/stiri/romania-se...tiv-911423.html

"Romania is ultimately pinned on the map of Holocaust"

A so called "historian", Adrian Cioflâncă, working for the Wiesel institute states that:

"Pentru a nu suna foarte abstract, să stabilim din capul locului că vorbim despre oameni nevinovaţi, evrei civili al căror destin a fost curmat brutal într-o pădure."

In order not to be very abstract, we should say from start that we talk about innocent people, Jewish civilans whose destiny was brutally ended in forest.

In the mean time, Romanian prosecutors opened an investigation.

http://www.mediafax.ro/social/schelete-uma...i-video-7693663

Prim-procurorul Prisăcariu a precizat pentru MEDIAFAX faptul că cele 13 cranii nu au urme de gloanţe, care să certifice o execuţie, însă în cauză s-a dispus efectuarea unei expertize antropologice pentru stabilirea naturii fragmentelor osoase, sexul şi vârsta, dacă sunt urme de violenţă şi care a fost cauza decesului.

For now, there is not known the ID of bodies, whether they are civilian or military, whether they executed or not, also the date is not yet exactly established. Yet, some Romanian historian hurry to state that they are innocent Jewish victims shot by Romanian Army in 1941 :angry:
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