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> Corpul 1 Aerian vs German Fleet, Aug 23 retreat of German Air / AA div.
mabadesc
Posted: February 25, 2014 06:48 pm
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A while back, Denes mentioned:
"The entire fleet of warplanes of Corpul 1 aerian român was German property, lent to the Rumanians for front use only. These formed the bulk of aircraft that went to war against Germany and, later, Hungary.

Gen. Dénes"

Several users briefly replied, however, as I admit I am not very knowledgeable in Air combat, tactics, and events, I would like to invite Denes and any interested members to explain and discuss the events that transpired shortly after Aug 23 1944 from an aviation perspective.

What units were strictly German property and only temporarily lent for Romanian use? How did the Germans react in neutralizing Romanian air combat?
Conversely, what measures did the Romanian aviation take to neutralize, take possession of, or destroy the German Air Fleet?

Finally, how many airplanes were the Germans able to save (whether from their own fleet, Romanian-lent equipment, or purely Romanian-owned airplanes)?
Same goes for auxiliary equipment, including AA guns and technical arsenal.

I think this may provide some interesting, less-known historical facts during those largely chaotic days. I believe we could also delve fairly deep into details which may not be well known.

I would like to maintain a purely objective, factual, historical discussion, without degenerating into which should have owned which, or whether what transpired was fair or not.

This post has been edited by mabadesc on February 25, 2014 06:51 pm
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Antoniu
Posted: February 26, 2014 07:39 am
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The reality is as follows: Romania to purchase [rat in Germany a number of aircraft of each type wartime losses were constantly filled by the German army. No planes purchased, but not those that were not filling us. After the event from August 23 to fight aircraft Romanian Aeronautical German origin, with those from normal completions, but with airplanes manufactured in Romania, IAR-80/81 and JRS-79B, United Kingdom - Bristol, Polish PZL - RWD - PWS.
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Dénes
Posted: February 26, 2014 11:13 am
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The German-made aircraft used by ARR had 4 origins:
1, bought directly from Germany, thus Rumanian property (e.g., Bf 109E, He 111H, He 114),
2, lent by Germans for front line use only (e.g., Bf 109G, Ju 87, Ju 88), mostly those of Corpul 1 Aerian,
3, assembled/built in Rumania (Bf 109G),
4, captured from Luftwaffe after 23 August 1944 (on joint airfields, in workshops, etc.).

As I said in my previous post, "The entire fleet of warplanes of Corpul 1 aerian român was German property, lent to the Rumanians for front use only."
Therefore, the Germans took back whatever of their own aircraft they could after the Rumanian defection of 23 August 1944 (like the Ju 87Ds of Gr. 6 picaj). They used these Stukas to attack Bucharest (some retained the ARR markings, which was in clear violation of the conduct of war. But the Rumanians also used in a few occasions Luftwaffe marked aircraft, e.g., Bf 109Gs). The Germans also tried to convince the Rumanian airmen whom they were in contact with to continue fighting alongside the Luftwaffe, with very little success, however.

I don't have the figures at hand, but the number of German owned aircraft in ARR markings the Rumanians captured must have been over 50. On the top of these come the aircraft in Luftwaffe markings, also captured, which was well over 100 pcs. Some of these were taken away by the Soviets (like the Bf 110Fs), but the majority was used in the anti-German and anti-Hungarian war.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on February 26, 2014 11:17 am
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mabadesc
Posted: February 27, 2014 12:55 am
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Thank you for your replies. It's starting to make sense a little more. I came across a Luftwaffe report written by CO of the 4th Air fleet on Jan 29, 1945, addressed to General Headquarters, Supreme Luftwaffe CO, etc.
The report, extending over some 40 pages, details the 4th fleet, 5AA and 15AA reaction to events just prior to and post- Aug 23 events. It includes specific extraction of German units and equipment, as well counter-measures taken against Romanian aviation aerodromes and squadrons.

From what I was able to gather, it seems that:
A) German air units were mostly able to retreat to airports in SE Hungary and Bulgaria (referring strictly to airplanes, not equipment or personnel)
B) Airplanes were flown out of Romanian-controlled territory only after they began to run short of oil. Several German engineer officers were dispatched to secure oil deposits around Buzau but were unable to find them or found the depots blown up by Romanian troops.
C). German air units attempted to take possession of Romanian-operated squadrons and, when unable, were successful at least a couple if times in destroying Romanian-flown airplanes on the ground.
D). Pursuant to the initial order from supreme headquarters not to withdraw, they were able in some cases to take control and fly Romanian-operated planes on retaliation missions - Bucharest bombing (?)

The report does not distinguish much between German and Romanian planes of German origin, in terms of ownership. This was a bit confusing to me, not knowing which squadron consisted of planes lent to ARR as opposed to planes officially owned by ARR.
They merely mention Romanian squadrons composed of planes of German origin.

Nevertheless, among the final summary, which lists all equipment lost by 4Th Fleet, 5AA, and 15AA, the loss of airplanes is listed as such:

Planes left behind by German units: 41
Planes being repaired (left behind): 243
Captured planes left behind: 92
Total: 376

New plane engines: 1337
Engines from damaged planes: 86
Engines good for repair: 300
Total: 1723

I am not sure what "captured planes left behind" means. Do they refer to fully-owned Romanian planes captured by German troops on several aerodromes and abandoned? Or to German planes operated by Romanian units (lent)?

In either case, does this mean the Luftwaffe lost 41 operational units and 243 damaged units being repaired around the 23 Aug events?

If anyone knows, what is the number of Romanian units lost or captured by Germans in the aug 23-27 time frame?

PS: it appears the losses in equipment sustained by 5AA and 15AA divisions (as listed in great detail) were much more substantial.

PPS: of interesting note, the report also mentions that "German planes" operated by Romanians first appeared in combat toward the end of September around the Cluj area. A particular interest is given to the HS129 squadron, which was praised by the Soviets, according to sources cited in the German report.

PPPS: another interesting excerpt discusses the obvious lack of desire of Romanian pilots to fight prior to Aug 23 (summer of 1944). Fighter pilots did not take off on alarm or reacted much too slow. German command was worried and suspected signs of a potential Romanian "treason". By consequence, they appointed Serbanescu as commander of fighter squadron(s) (??) thus attempting to remedy the situation. Unfortunately, the report mentions, Serbanescu was soon after shot down in combat.

Do any of these sound correct from either a Romanian perspective or a neutral point of view?

Thanks for your comments. Please feel free to add or contradict the above. As I said, the report gives a lot of data, but is somewhat confusing when differentiating between Romanian owned vs Romanian-lent air equipment.

Thanks!

This post has been edited by mabadesc on February 27, 2014 12:58 am
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D13-th_Mytzu
Posted: February 28, 2014 07:21 am
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Hello Denes : )
Just a matter of understanding war logic: the planes lent by germans for frontline use only are not to be considered captured from Luftwaffe after 23rd August 1944 ? Do you count them as such or separately ?
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Dénes
Posted: March 01, 2014 06:40 am
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Official Rumanian documents count "captures" only ex-Luftwaffe aircraft (with German markings), not the ones lent to ARR (thus German property, but wearing ARR markings). That's the "war logic" what I follow, too.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on March 01, 2014 06:41 am
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D13-th_Mytzu
Posted: March 01, 2014 08:32 am
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My question is how do historians consider this from a wartime perspective, not army bureaucrats writing papers.
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Dénes
Posted: March 01, 2014 12:18 pm
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As far as I know, no one, except I, tackled this particular issue yet.

Gen. Dénes
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mabadesc
Posted: March 01, 2014 11:43 pm
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Hi Denes,
I had no idea you wrote on this subject. I find it interesting, although its not my area of expertise.
You answered how Romanians counted losses in this area. My question is, how did Germans count these same losses, from their perspective. The 4th Luftflotte report I quoted from was a bit unclear to me. Do the figures I quoted coincide with your findings?
Anyway, interesting subject.

Also, the document lists a large numbers of 88mm AA guns (low hundreds), along with 128mm and 20mm AA guns and transmission equipment left behind in Romania. What happened to these? Were most of them confiscated by the Soviets? I don't think many of them were pressed into Romanian active units.

PS: I just want to reiterate that I am not trying to discuss "war ethics" and so forth. Any country, Germany included, would have captured military equipment (and actually did so) from a former ally and would have had no qualms in using it against their new opponents.

D13-th_Mytzu wrote:
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My question is how do historians consider this from a wartime perspective, not army bureaucrats writing papers.


Mytzu, if you're referring to the report I quoted from, it was not written by military bureaucrats; it is a military operations report submitted by the 4th LuftFlotte Operations Chief of Staff to the OKW/OKH Chief of Staff and to Luftwaffe Command, dated late 1944/early 1945, as soon as all inventory data and losses could be gathered and summarized, from my understanding.

This post has been edited by mabadesc on March 01, 2014 11:53 pm
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D13-th_Mytzu
Posted: March 01, 2014 11:55 pm
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No, I was refering to what Denes said - wanted to know if his calculations included german lent aircraft into the captured german aircraft post 23rd august '44.
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Taz1
Posted: March 04, 2014 09:35 pm
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One of the actions of the First Romanian Air Corps took place on 30 August 1944, when German troops where attacked wile retreating from Bucharest to Ploiesti after the failed atemp to conquer Bucharest. German motorized column comprised of around 200 vehicles was attacked in the village of Nuci, 70 vehicles were destroyed. German column led by General Alfred Gerstenberg was forced to surrender at Gherghita.
  Remark of the german report on Romanian pilots was not founded. Their lack of reaction reason, was because planes IAR 80/81 were no longer faced in combat with P-51, P-38.
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Florin
Posted: March 06, 2014 01:52 am
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The Communist propaganda (or name it "history" articles ) that I read when I was child and teenager claimed that during the events started and following to August 23, 1944, the Romanians captured 222 German airplanes on the airfields spread all over Romania. How many of them escaped from the Soviet greediness ?
That is beyond the planes that Romania already got legally before that date, like the plane equipped with night detection / radar technology.
(This airplane was discussed in another topic, no need to start again.)

This post has been edited by Florin on March 06, 2014 01:58 am
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mabadesc
Posted: March 07, 2014 03:23 pm
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Florin, these are the official airplane losses caused by Aug 23, according to a military report written by 4th Luftflotte.

Planes left behind by German units: 41
Planes being repaired (left behind): 243
Captured planes left behind: 92
Total: 376

I'm not sure how many of these were confiscated by the Soviet Allied Commission, however, and how many ended up operational in the ARR. I would also like to know.
Thanks.
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Taz1
Posted: March 07, 2014 08:46 pm
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The germans manage to save most of the pilots and grown crews. A thing vital for luftwaffe in this stage of war.
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Taz1
Posted: April 15, 2015 07:48 pm
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Can somebody tell me where can I find the 4th Luftflotte report regarding the losses in Romania after 23.08.1944 ?

Thank you.
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