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> Russia and the Independence War, split from Carol II fortifications
MMM
Posted: December 27, 2013 05:02 pm
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OK! Your point is that Russia could have taken all Romania in 1878. Militarily speaking, yes, but what would have been the consequences? Do you think that Habsburgs, Germany, Britain would have said (or done) nothing? Just 20 years after the Crimean War? Do you really suppose that Russia was in a league of her own? Not even in 1945... But it seems that in 1944/45 USSR found it easier to simply install puppets which would sign whatever needed - a thing not so easy to be done in 1870-s!
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Radub
Posted: December 27, 2013 05:21 pm
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I was talking about facts and events that actually took place.
Of course politics and diplomacy played a huge role.
Radu
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MMM
Posted: December 28, 2013 05:50 am
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When you write "Russia could have done this and that, this is NOT an event that actually took place! Or is it? And no, I am not talking about the period of 1820-s, but about 1878! Because in 1940 everybody knows that only Germany prevented our invasion by the Red Army,
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Victor
Posted: December 28, 2013 09:16 am
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This is why debates are something very important that is missing from the Romanian curricula (spelling ?). Two highly educated people simply don't seem to be able to discuss an issue without resorting to personal attacks (unable to understand, deaf, hag etc) when they don't agree on something. It's Christmas. At least now one should try to be more tolerant.
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Radub
Posted: December 28, 2013 10:06 am
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QUOTE (MMM @ December 28, 2013 05:50 am)
When you write "Russia could have done this and that, this is NOT an event that actually took place! Or is it? And no, I am not talking about the period of 1820-s, but about 1878! Because in 1940 everybody knows that only Germany prevented our invasion by the Red Army,

But what does not make sense is why you are so obsessed with what happened in 1940 in a thread about 1877/1878. Tsarist Russia of 1878 was different from Stalin's USSR of 1940. What you are doing is akin to "discussing the Battle of the Bulge in a thread about the American war of Independence." It is not "smart", in fact it is the opposite if it.

As Victor said, here we have a chance to discuss something that is usually never discussed in Romania and you keep dynamiting it (two pages now). Stop! Please stop!

Radu
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Imperialist
Posted: December 28, 2013 01:17 pm
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QUOTE (Victor @ December 28, 2013 09:16 am)
This is why debates are something very important that is missing from the Romanian curricula (spelling ?). Two highly educated people simply don't seem to be able to discuss an issue without resorting to personal attacks (unable to understand, deaf, hag etc) when they don't agree on something. It's Christmas. At least now one should try to be more tolerant.

I've noticed this inability within the Romanian world of academia too. It's mostly because highly educated people also tend to develop very big egos and some of them tend to take things very personally when they are contradicted on an issue dear to them. This wouldn't be that bad but our Latin temper also means we are prone to "letting it all out" in an angry outburst. That burns the "communication bridges" and each side then retreats into its own cocoon (or forms "bisericute" with other people who agree completely) and is reluctant to communicate/cooperate.
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Victor
Posted: December 30, 2013 03:51 pm
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QUOTE (Radub @ December 24, 2013 07:25 pm)
In the 1856 Treaty of Paris, the Budjak was not really "taken from Russia" and it was not "given to Romania" either, again for the simple reason that "Romania" as we understand it today did not exist. In fact, 1856 was three years before the 1859  union between the Principalities, which anyway were still for all intents and purposes part of the Ottoman Empire. The Treaty of Paris was signed beween Russia (defeated) and the Ottoman Empire (victor) at the end of the Crimean War and the principalities were not part of the delegation, they were not even asked. Anyway, as I said, the Budjak was not "taken from Russia" and it was not actually "given to the Ottoman Empire" either. It was placed under the control of the "Commission of the Danube River" which acted as an independent body. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissions_of_the_Danube_River

The three counties in Southern Bessarabia (Cahul, Ismail and Bolgrad) were given through the Treaty of Paris of 1856 to the Principality of Moldova, not to the Ottoman Empire, unlike the Danube Delta which was directly annexed by the Porte (the initial talks proposed to give as well the Delta to Moldavia). The Danube Commission had authority only on the water canals in the Delta, not in the territory north of it.

The three counties were taken over by the Moldavian administration. When Moldavia united with Wallachia in 1859 to form the United Principalities and later Romania (1862), this territory was obviously part of the newly formed entity. Troops were raised in these three counties (mounted gendarmes squadrons) and took part in the 1877-78 war. It is thus wrong to consider that the three counties were not part of the territory of the Romanian state in 1878.

The idea that the Romanian Principalities and then Romania were/was part of the Ottoman Empire is debatable. Through the treaty of Adrianople/Edirne of 1829, the two principalities were basically put under a Russian-Ottoman condominium. The Porte was still the nominal sovereign power, but the new "constitution" was basically drafted by Russia with the help of the local nobility, the new government was setup by Russia and nothing could be changed without Russian consent. Furthermore, the Turkish bridgeheads (raia) at Turnu [Magurele], Giurgiu and Braila were to be transferred back to Wallachia.

During the Crimean War, the Russian-Ottoman condominium was briefly replaced by a similar Austrian-Ottoman condominium. The Treaty of Paris of 1856, however, placed the two principalities under the common protection of all European powers in order to ensure that none will exert more influence than the rest. It also recognized the administrative independence of the Principalities. The Ottoman Empire was still the sovereign power in name, but the situation of the Principalities was very different from that of Bulgaria or Dobruja at the time.

The Romanians grabbed the maximum they could from this situation and went on to create one state from the two principalities and then, having the benefit of a great prince in the person of Carol, to organize and modernize the country. Thus, although de jure Romania was still dependent from the Porte, the reality was very much different from what was 60-70 years before.

In April 1877, Romania and Russia signed a convention to facilitate the passing of Russian troops on Romanian territory. Article 2 of this convention contained Russia's obligation to maintain Romania's territorial integrity. This article was breached by the Treaty of San Stefano, through the annexation of the 3 Bessarabian counties, hence the indignation of prince Carol and his government, the concentration of the Army around Ploiesti and the military tension resolved by the Treaty of Berlin. It is not very important that Moldova did not take part in Congress of Paris in 1856 or that Romania, as successor state, did not take part in the Congress of Berlin in 1878 when the three counties were shifted back and forth. It was considered Romanian territory by the Romanian government. The Great Powers did what they usually did and tended to their own interests, although Romania got a relatively decent deal. The fact remained that Russia breached the convention with Romania and, although it did not have any European consequences, given the relative importance of the two parties, it left marks in the Romanian psyche. Later, Romania secretly joined the German-Austro-Hungarian defence alliance aimed mainly against Russia.

A long post unfortunately, but it is a complex subject, which should not be treated lightly.
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Victor
Posted: December 30, 2013 04:19 pm
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QUOTE (Radub @ December 28, 2013 12:06 pm)

As Victor said, here we have a chance to discuss something that is usually never discussed in Romania and you keep dynamiting it (two pages now). Stop! Please stop!

Radu

MMM has raised some interesting points, unfortunately without going into many details. Maybe tomorrow I will have time to elaborate.
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Petre
Posted: December 30, 2013 06:40 pm
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Translation from a russian book :

QUOTE
The Treaty of Paris 1856 :
Articolul XX:
In schimbul oraselor, porturilor si teritoriului mentionate la Art. IV din tratat si pentru a asigura o mai mare libertate de navigatie pe Dunare, M.S.Imparatul intregii Rusii este de acord cu trasarea unei noi linii de demarcatie in Basarabia….
Articolul XXI:
Teritoriul cedat de Rusia va fi alipit la Principatul Moldovei de sub inalta autoritate a Sublimei Porti.

The Preliminary Treaty of San-Stefano 1878
ARTICOLUL XIX
Remuneratie si despagubiri… total 1410 milioane ruble.
Avand in vedere greutatile financiare ale Turciei si conform cu solicitarea M.S.Sultanul, Imparatul intregii Rusii este de acord cu inlocuirea a mare parte a sumei calculate… cu urmatoarele concesii teritoriale:
a) Sangeacul Tulcei, adica judetele Kilia, Sulina, Mahmudia, Isaccea,Tulcea, Macin, Babadag, Harsova, Kiustenge si Medgidia, precum si ostroavele Deltei si insula Serpilor. Ne dorind sa-si alipeasca teritoriile mentionate si ostroavele Deltei, Rusia se ofera … sa le schimbe cu acea parte a Basarabiei care i-a fost instrainata prin tratatul din 1856…

The Treaty of Berlin 1878
ARTICOLUL ХLV
Principatul Romania inapoiaza M.S.Imperiale partea ruseasca din teritoriul Basarabiei luata de la Rusia prin Tratatul de la Paris 1856…
ARTICOLUL ХLVI
Оstroavele care formeaza Delta Dunarii, precum si insula Serpilor, sangeacul Tulcei alcatuit din… se alipesc la Romania. Principatul, mai primeste in plus teritoriul care se intinde in sudul Dobrogei pana la…, la sud de Mangalia.


This post has been edited by Petre on February 21, 2015 10:15 am
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