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> Romanian Air Corps on the Western Front, rare footage
Florin
Posted: October 25, 2013 04:18 pm
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QUOTE (luciang @ October 25, 2013 10:59 am)
Then, it would be interesting to know which were the goods that Germany sent to Romania in exchange for the oil and cereals. Or were these paid with Reichsmarks at an arguable exchange rate ?

Lucian G

Lucian, among other things, Germany paid to Romania about 30,000 kilograms of gold, that were confiscated by Soviet Union. The Romanian Communists had shown to the Russians were the gold was hidden.
So when you think of the Romanian gold that remained in Russia after World War One, add this big chunk of gold stolen by them in World War Two.

This post has been edited by Florin on October 25, 2013 04:19 pm
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luciang
Posted: October 25, 2013 04:59 pm
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What I mean is this: if the planes were lent to Romania, this means that they were not given for free, because they had to be returned sometime. In the accounting books they were registered as a debt of Romania towards Germany, until the goods were returned. If a german economic commission established in 1945 that the trade balance between Germany and Romania was ok, this means that they took into account these planes as well.
So, it results that the planes were paid by Romania.

Lucian G
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Dénes
Posted: October 25, 2013 05:47 pm
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QUOTE (luciang @ October 25, 2013 10:59 pm)
So, it results that the planes were paid by Romania.

Wrong conclusion. These warplanes were lent to the Rumanians as long as they fought for a common goal. They remained German property. They did not show up in any Rumanian accounting books, only in administration papers.
These airplanes were to be eventually given to the Rumanians for free after the (successful) conclusion of the joint endeavour (which never happened, of course).

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on October 25, 2013 05:49 pm
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luciang
Posted: October 25, 2013 06:03 pm
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I see. Does this mean that the german accounting books did not take them into account as well ?
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luciang
Posted: October 25, 2013 06:23 pm
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I mean: it seems established that they were not explicitedly paid for. But, if the germans themselves established that the trade balance was ok, may be they have taken these planes value also into account.
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Radub
Posted: October 25, 2013 06:32 pm
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Luciang,
Maybe this will help you understand:

When Romania purchased equipment from Germany, they purchased from the manufacturer. When Romania purchased Messerschmitts, they purchased them from the Messerschmitt factory. These were paid for in cash.

When Romania was loaned equipment by Germany, it was supplied by the respective branches of the armed forces, tanks from the Wehrmacht, planes from the Luftwaffe and so on. On some occasions, the equipment even kept the German markings. Some even kept some German staff on board.

So, when Florin mentions "balancing the books" he means "purchases".

I thought you had some new information.

Radu
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Florin
Posted: October 25, 2013 06:42 pm
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Lucian, the exchange of goods between the 2 countries was quite big, and I dare to say that the value of all German airplanes accounted to maximum 1...2 percent of it.
But this is a wild guess. And I am also assuming that the I.A.R. factory paid for the engines inserted into the licensed Me-109, so they are out of discussion.

A historian would take into account the value of each airplane, multiply with the number of airplanes and compare with the numbers in foreign exchange books.
One source for the latter is the book translated into Romanian "Hitler, King Carol and Marshall Antonescu", by a German historian. There you will find the amount owed / paid by Romania, that owed / paid by Germany, and other things.
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mabadesc
Posted: October 25, 2013 07:12 pm
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I don't quite follow the point of this discussion. Can a country be blamed for using any military equipment - be it donated or sold - against its newly declared adversary? Does anyone think the Germans would have expressed any remorse in doing the exact same thing, had the situation been reversed? I hardly doubt it.
Furthermore, just preceding August 23, didn't the Germans take over a good portion of tanks from the 1st and 2nd armored regiments using the excuse that they had more experienced drivers (instructors)? And didn't they keep all these Romanian-owned tanks they could get their hands on after Aug 23?
Further, didn't they deliver (as part of a paid economic contract) worn-out T-3's and T-38's earlier that year, not meeting a minimum of quality standards?
Finally, with respect to the "Rumanischer Vereat", one might equally accuse the Germans of a Deutscher Verrat when, after having promised to provide enough troops to keep the Soviets out of Romanian territory during the summer of 1944, they proceeded to move away from the Romanian front line approximately 5 armored divisions and send them to Poland.
Much to the dismay of Romanian commanders who continually protested that without the presence of German armored divisions, the Moldavian front line - and therefore the integrity of Romania could not be maintained.
In the eyes of many Romanian officers, the treason came from Germany, leaving them in a hopeless situation.
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Florin
Posted: October 25, 2013 07:13 pm
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I searched on Internet, and you may find the following interesting:

1942 Ju-88 Production Cost
RM 107,966 material cost.
RM 6,876 labor cost. 4.86% of total airframe cost.
* * * * *
When China ordered 12 He 111 A-0s, it was at a cost of 400,000 Reichsmark per piece. But this may be misleading, because even to most trusted allies (i.e. Japan), the German equipment could be sold at few times its real value.
* * * * *
V-1 took 350 man hours @3,500 Reichmarks while the V-2 took 60,000 hours @240,000 Reichmarks.
* * * * *
Messerschmitt Bf 109G-6 had a unit cost of 42,900 RM.


As for any Internet information, use your own judgment.

This post has been edited by Florin on October 25, 2013 07:14 pm
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Agarici
Posted: October 25, 2013 08:13 pm
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QUOTE (mabadesc @ October 25, 2013 07:12 pm)
I don't quite follow the point of this discussion. Can a country be blamed for using any military equipment - be it donated or sold - against its newly declared adversary? Does anyone think the Germans would have expressed any remorse in doing the exact same thing, had the situation been reversed? I hardly doubt it.
Furthermore, just preceding August 23, didn't the Germans take over a good portion of tanks from the 1st and 2nd armored regiments using the excuse that they had more experienced drivers (instructors)? And didn't they keep all these Romanian-owned tanks they could get their hands on after Aug 23?
Further, didn't they deliver (as part of a paid economic contract) worn-out T-3's and T-38's earlier that year, not meeting a minimum of quality standards?
Finally, with respect to the "Rumanischer Vereat", one might equally accuse the Germans of a Deutscher Verrat when, after having promised to provide enough troops to keep the Soviets out of Romanian territory during the summer of 1944, they proceeded to move away from the Romanian front line approximately 5 armored divisions and send them to Poland.
Much to the dismay of Romanian commanders who continually protested that without the presence of German armored divisions, the Moldavian front line - and therefore the integrity of Romania could not be maintained.
In the eyes of many Romanian officers, the treason came from Germany, leaving them in a hopeless situation.


I couldn’t have said it better. I entirely agree with you, mbadesc. I also have a problem with the fact that some consider the Nazi Germany (which, among other things, looted the entire occupied Europe) as a responsible, normal or “quite regular” political regime - be it before or after 23 August 1944. And it is not a political correctness-driven point. An important part of the German wealth and GDP by 1944 was realized using forced labour in the concentration camps. The “Romanian betrayal”/ "Rumanischer Vereat" - which by the way wasn’t even mentioned in the most recent book dealing with the events, wrote by a German author (Klaus Schonherr – Luptele Wermachtului in Romania, 1944) is just another myth. It appears that some, when criticizing the use of the “historical myths”, are excluding from their critical scrutiny those which fit a particular agenda.
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Florin
Posted: October 25, 2013 08:52 pm
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QUOTE (mabadesc @ October 25, 2013 02:12 pm)
...............
Finally, with respect to the "Rumanischer Vereat", one might equally accuse the Germans of a Deutscher Verrat when, after having promised to provide enough troops to keep the Soviets out of Romanian territory during the summer of 1944, they proceeded to move away from the Romanian front line approximately 5 armored divisions and send them to Poland. 
Much to the dismay of Romanian commanders who continually protested that without the presence of German armored divisions, the Moldavian front line - and therefore the integrity of Romania could not be maintained.
In the eyes of many Romanian officers, the treason came from Germany, leaving them in a hopeless situation.

I thought of that, but even better, you put it in writing. Especially considering that various high rank German officials made statements that Germany is/will defend herself at Dniester River.
Now, from a realistic point of view, both countries were in dire straits (maybe desperate situation sounds better) by July 1944, and they could barely help their own problems, even less helping each other.

This post has been edited by Florin on October 25, 2013 09:19 pm
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