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> General Giap died
MMM
Posted: October 09, 2013 04:14 pm
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QUOTE (dragos @ October 09, 2013 04:37 pm)
carpet bombing civilian areas.

Should we define „civilian areas”? According to whom, the USA or to Vietnam? The VC was civilian?
Oh, I do NOT defend carpet bombing, but neither the „partisan fighting” style...
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dragos
Posted: October 10, 2013 06:18 am
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Radub
Posted: October 10, 2013 07:39 am
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QUOTE (MMM @ October 09, 2013 04:14 pm)
QUOTE (dragos @ October 09, 2013 04:37 pm)
carpet bombing civilian areas.

Should we define „civilian areas”? According to whom, the USA or to Vietnam? The VC was civilian?
Oh, I do NOT defend carpet bombing, but neither the „partisan fighting” style...

"Agent Orange" was quite indiscriminate. It had devastating effects on everyone and yielded no military advantage. It affected the civilians the most because unlike the soldiers that were mobile and just moved elsewhere, the civilans stayed in their villages and on their farms where they were affected for generations (the effects are ongoing).
Radu
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MMM
Posted: October 10, 2013 04:16 pm
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QUOTE (dragos @ October 10, 2013 09:18 am)
This for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Linebacker_II

Let`s NOT go there... that was Nixon`s „deliberate madness” strategy which could have worked in other circumstances. Anyway, the number of casualties (civilian casualties) was remarkably low...
And the „carpet bombing” was way weaker than WW2 camapaigns - for which „Bomber Harris” has statues in England. Not in Germany, though...
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Radub
Posted: October 10, 2013 05:30 pm
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QUOTE (MMM @ October 10, 2013 04:16 pm)

And the „carpet bombing” was way weaker than WW2 camapaigns - for which „Bomber Harris” has statues in England. Not in Germany, though...

Actually... Unlike other major British military commanders Harris did not get a statue until the nineties, long after he died. I recall that when the Queen unveiled his statue there were protests and the statue had to be put under guard.
The RAF Bomber Command was the only major branch of the British Armed Forces that did not get an official memorial after the war. A memorial was eventually unveiled a couple of years ago.
In Britain there is a significant anti-war movement and the Bomber Command was often used as their "whipping boy".
Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on October 10, 2013 05:31 pm
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MMM
Posted: October 10, 2013 06:26 pm
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QUOTE (Radub @ October 10, 2013 08:30 pm)
QUOTE (MMM @ October 10, 2013 04:16 pm)

And the „carpet bombing” was way weaker than WW2 camapaigns - for which „Bomber Harris” has statues in England. Not in Germany, though...

Actually... Unlike other major British military commanders Harris did not get a statue until the nineties, long after he died. I recall that when the Queen unveiled his statue there were protests and the statue had to be put under guard.
...
Radu

Yeah, I was referring exactly at that! Perhaps I should have written „eventually” got a statue, but the rest of what I wrote stands! The numbers speak for themselves.

This post has been edited by MMM on October 10, 2013 06:28 pm
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Radub
Posted: October 10, 2013 09:33 pm
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Well, the "tone" of your post implied that Arthur Harris is revered as a hero in Great Britain and has many "statues". But the truth is that the work of the Bomber Command was always regarded with a certain amount of... let's call it... "awkwardness". Both Harris and the Bomber Command had to wait many decades to get some recognition. Neither Harris nor many of his pilots lived to see "official recognition".
Radu
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Florin
Posted: October 11, 2013 05:38 am
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QUOTE (MMM @ October 10, 2013 11:16 am)
QUOTE (dragos @ October 10, 2013 09:18 am)
This for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Linebacker_II

Let`s NOT go there... that was Nixon`s „deliberate madness” strategy which could have worked in other circumstances. Anyway, the number of casualties (civilian casualties) was remarkably low...
And the „carpet bombing” was way weaker than WW2 camapaigns - for which „Bomber Harris” has statues in England. Not in Germany, though...

MMM, regarding your "... the number of casualties (civilian casualties) was remarkably low..."
Did you read my previous message when I mentioned that the total loss of Vietnamese lives in that conflict was 3.6 million ?
I am sure that the civilian casualties exceeded the military personnel killed.
Maybe you missed my text...
Source: an American newspaper printed in NY few years ago.

And the "carpet bombing" was not weaker than WW2 campaigns.
I would say it was worse, but this needs a double check. A way to find an answer is to search for the quantity of bombs dropped over Germany, versus the quantity of bombs dropped over Vietnam.
(The Romanian newspapers of that era claimed that more bombs fell over Vietnam than over Germany, but maybe it was Communist propaganda.)

In the collection of presents received by Ceausescu there was a piece from the 1000th American plane shot down by the Vietnamese. Considering how many Communist leaders were in those days, I guess the Vietnamese had to do a careful partition of that plane, like the 5 breads of Jesus. :lol: The event was also marked by some very funny comics in "Urzica", by Octavian Andronic.

This post has been edited by Florin on October 11, 2013 05:55 am
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MMM
  Posted: October 11, 2013 06:49 pm
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Oh, I am growing tired... Of course I meant „low casualties for carpet bombing”. Just to end this: have you forgotten Dresden? Or the Hamburg firestorm? Google them, please, and only then argue with me or anybody else about a mere 1500 civilians killed (which is, btw, more than half the size of the village I live in...).
It was about the effectiveness of the bombing, not the quantity or the power, ok?
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ANDREAS
Posted: October 12, 2013 10:39 am
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Beyond an appreciation or criticisms of military mastery of gen. Giap, I say it's more important that he fought for his own country, even serving an authoritarian, communist regime, while his US opponents (especially Gen. Westmoreland) led a war of aggression under the pretext of stopping the advance of communism in South East Asia. Naturally, from our point of view, the policy of ignoring the high loss of your man is criminal, but let's agree with the fact that technological differences, numerical, economical and military potential between USA and North Vietnam (even supported by PRC and USSR) was gigantic and an intelligent solution to that was not easy to find! Without any intention to find an excuse to Gen. Giap, an unusual type of war (guerilla) is indicated in those cases, but it always brings dramatic consequences on the civilian population! Contrary to what some coforumist write above, I know that US Army units were numerous times in a position to be destroyed by VietCong, if the US Air Force had not intervened decisively!
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Florin
Posted: October 12, 2013 07:07 pm
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ October 12, 2013 05:39 am)
............... Contrary to what some coforumist write above, I know that US Army units were numerous times in a position to be destroyed by VietCong, if the US Air Force had not intervened decisively!

I fully agree with that.

And I am adding that in those days the GDP (Gross domestic product) of The United States was two thirds of that of the whole planet - so the rest of the world combined had an economic power equaling a half of that of The United States.
The war in South Asia had an important impact to the American economy. Before it, The United States government was the biggest lender of the world - many countries owed money to it. The expenses of that war turned the U.S. government into borrowing money in all ways possible, and then they did not change the habit ever after, so here we are today: with a debt ceiling voted again and again to go through the roof, until the rotten ship will merely sunk.

This post has been edited by Florin on October 12, 2013 07:10 pm
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ANDREAS
Posted: October 13, 2013 10:18 am
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Florin, you posted interesting data, thanks! Indeed, so what good the propaganda that I have heard on many occasions (I mean "if politicians would have left the military to apply their tactics the war was won by US") if its consequences were so harmful to U.S. especially economy and population? I also agree with the reverse of my statement namely if as many resources were allotted in this war, this war deserved at least to be won!
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Victor
Posted: October 13, 2013 03:45 pm
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I think one should look as well on the other side of the fence. The war had a cost also for the Communists (USSR and China), which had to divert resources that could have very well went in other directions. Overall it could have served to weaken the Communist camp.
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Florin
Posted: October 14, 2013 02:09 am
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QUOTE (Victor @ October 13, 2013 10:45 am)
I think one should look as well on the other side of the fence. The war had a cost also for the Communists (USSR and China), which had to divert resources that could have very well went in other directions. Overall it could have served to weaken the Communist camp.

I would say that immediately after the end of that war the Communist camp felt stronger and the Capitalist camp felt weaker. The few years following the withdrawal from Vietnam saw a lot of confusion and pessimism in America.
Fortunately Ronald Reagan helped turning the tide. I think America owes to that president quite a lot, but today he is forgotten. I am not adding more, to spare this topic to become more politicized.
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Florin
Posted: October 14, 2013 02:17 am
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ October 13, 2013 05:18 am)
Florin, you posted interesting data, thanks! Indeed, so what good the propaganda that I have heard on many occasions (I mean "if politicians would have left the military to apply their tactics the war was won by US") if its consequences were so harmful to U.S. especially economy and population? I also agree with the reverse of my statement namely if as many resources were allotted in this war, this war deserved at least to be won!

If politicians would have left the military to apply their tactics, General MacArthur would have dropped over North Korea 20...30 nuclear bombs as a simultaneous salvo !
I am serious - you can check this.
Fortunately President Truman and the rest of the American political leadership of that moment had more down to earth common sense.

This post has been edited by Florin on October 14, 2013 02:18 am
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