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> We should be proud of Eastern Front victories?, about the romanian victories 1941/42
 
Are you proud of Romanian Army victories from Nov.1941-Nov.1942?
-Yes, I am proud for our Army victories from November 1941 onwards! [ 24 ]  [77.42%]
-No, from moral point of view I have no reason to be proud! [ 2 ]  [6.45%]
-There are no "pure" Romanian victories but only in cooperation with the Germans, so... [ 5 ]  [16.13%]
Total Votes: 31
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Dénes
Posted on April 30, 2013 12:51 pm
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QUOTE (luciang @ April 30, 2013 06:26 pm)
I believe that after this declaration it's hard to claim that any military action came by surprise.

Any prerequisite to cross the border is a declaration of war.
Rumania declared war on Hungary on 7 Sept. (IIRC).

Gen. Dénes
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dragos
Posted on April 30, 2013 03:41 pm
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Just of curiosity, did Hungary declared war when they invaded Yugoslavia in 1941?
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ANDREAS
Posted on April 30, 2013 06:28 pm
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ April 27, 2013 02:52 pm)
For the sake of the game let's suppose...
This is not a game, these are not suppositions, these are historical facts.
I am really tired to repeat over and over again the same basic things after all those years.
Politics should be set aside, as it's the death of history.
If some facts are unconfortable for some, it's these people's personal issue, they should overcome it (or not).
Until this can be achieved, it's pointless any further discussions.
Gen. Dénes


I realize of course that I speak off-topic but I did not get the answer to the question so... I have to repeat my question: what significance have the border crossing into Northern Transylvania of the Romanian Army at the end august 1944? Given that Hungary was virtually a country occupied by the Germans in March 1944 (Margarethe Operation) and the German troops crossed the Hungarian border into Romania from 24/25 August 1944 in an attempt to gain control over some areas (I can give numerous examples if necessary!) I could hardly understand what Denes wanted to emphasize through this?
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Dénes
Posted on April 30, 2013 07:55 pm
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QUOTE (dragos @ April 30, 2013 09:41 pm)
Just of curiosity, did Hungary declared war when they invaded Yugoslavia in 1941?

Hungary waited until Yugoslavia ceased de facto to exist on 10 April 1941, and only then crossed the (former) Yugoslav borders.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 30, 2013 07:57 pm
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dragos
Posted on April 30, 2013 08:06 pm
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QUOTE (Dénes @ April 30, 2013 09:55 pm)
QUOTE (dragos @ April 30, 2013 09:41 pm)
Just of curiosity, did Hungary declared war when they invaded Yugoslavia in 1941?

Hungary waited until Yugoslavia ceased de facto to exist on 10 April 1941, and only then crossed the (former) Yugoslav borders.

Gen. Dénes

In that case can't we say that after 23 August 1944 the Vienna Diktat or Award of 1940 ceased de facto to exist?
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ANDREAS
Posted on April 30, 2013 10:32 pm
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Hungary waited until Yugoslavia ceased de facto to exist on 10 April 1941, and only then crossed the (former) Yugoslav borders.
Gen. Dénes

I'm sure you believe that, otherwise you would not say! In reality Yugoslavia continued to exist until the surrender of the Royal Yugoslav Army on 15 April 1941 (there were signs in this direction from 13 April indeed!), and the so-called break-up of Yugoslavia was a required "maneuver" of Horthy to Hitler caused by the opposition of some of hungarian political and military leaders. This was also consequence of the suicide of Hungarian Prime Minister Pál Teleki caused by his opposition to German troops passing through Hungary into their purpose of attacking Yugoslavia, because Hungary had a peace and friendship treaty signed with the Kingdom of Yugoslavia from December 1940. The "maneuver" is connected to the need of the Hungarian Regent to show a different picture than the real one, in this case the participation along with German and Italian troops to the invasion of Yugoslavia! The Hungarian forces had established a definite front sector since April 3, 1941, the military cooperation with the German troops, units participating in the invasion a.o. being clearly defined! The condition posed by Horthy for participation of the Hungarian army to the operations was the secession of Croatia (who happened as a consequence to the activities of German agents in Zagreb and the promises for a croatian independent state) and, consequently, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia cease to exist. So if there was no Yugoslavia, no treaty could be broken! After the proclamation of an Independent State of Croatia in Zagreb on 10 April, this scenario was realized and Hungary joined the invasion, its army crossing into Yugoslavia the next day. Of course that in the economy of the war the participation the Hungarian army in the invasion was insignificant, but that action can not be passed over in silence!
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Florin
Posted on May 01, 2013 12:39 am
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ April 30, 2013 01:28 pm)
...... and the German troops crossed the Hungarian border into Romania from 24/25 August 1944 in an attempt to gain control over some areas (I can give numerous examples if necessary!) .........

From this every side reading this topic can understand my confusion, when I claimed that the Hungarian troops were the first to attack (rather than the Romanian troops) after August 23, 1944.

This post has been edited by Florin on May 01, 2013 12:39 am
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MMM
  Posted on May 01, 2013 10:14 am
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ May 01, 2013 01:32 am)
QUOTE
Hungary waited until Yugoslavia ceased de facto to exist on 10 April 1941, and only then crossed the (former) Yugoslav borders.
Gen. Dénes

I'm sure you believe that, otherwise you would not say! In reality Yugoslavia continued to exist until the surrender of the Royal Yugoslav Army on 15 April 1941 (there were signs in this direction from 13 April indeed!), and the so-called break-up of Yugoslavia was a required "maneuver" of Horthy to Hitler caused by the opposition of some of hungarian political and military leaders. This was also consequence of the suicide of Hungarian Prime Minister Pál Teleki caused by his opposition to German troops passing through Hungary into their purpose of attacking Yugoslavia, because Hungary had a peace and friendship treaty signed with the Kingdom of Yugoslavia from December 1940. The "maneuver" is connected to the need of the Hungarian Regent to show a different picture than the real one, in this case the participation along with German and Italian troops to the invasion of Yugoslavia! The Hungarian forces had established a definite front sector since April 3, 1941, the military cooperation with the German troops, units participating in the invasion a.o. being clearly defined! The condition posed by Horthy for participation of the Hungarian army to the operations was the secession of Croatia (who happened as a consequence to the activities of German agents in Zagreb and the promises for a croatian independent state) and, consequently, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia cease to exist. So if there was no Yugoslavia, no treaty could be broken! After the proclamation of an Independent State of Croatia in Zagreb on 10 April, this scenario was realized and Hungary joined the invasion, its army crossing into Yugoslavia the next day. Of course that in the economy of the war the participation the Hungarian army in the invasion was insignificant, but that action can not be passed over in silence!

So, bottom line, ANDREAS, your point is that - much like the hatred and despised moves of USSR-towards-Poland in 1939 and Germany-towards-USSR in 1941, Hungary actually "broke" a friendship pact? Who'd have thought that? <_<

This post has been edited by MMM on May 03, 2013 03:12 pm
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ANDREAS
Posted on May 01, 2013 11:32 am
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QUOTE
So, bottom line, ANDREAS, your point is that - much like the hatred and despised moves of USSR-towards-Poland in 1939 and Germyny-towards-USSR in 1941, Hungary actually "broke" a friendship pact? Who'd have thought that?

I am sure you understand from the context what I wanted to emphasize! Romania undoubtedly violated a similar treaty signed with Yougoslavia by allowing German troops to attack from Banat, but Denes suggested that Hungary was correct and respect treaties signed while Romania has violated them! I wanted only to highlight this!
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ANDREAS
Posted on May 01, 2013 12:39 pm
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From this every side reading this topic can understand my confusion, when I claimed that the Hungarian troops were the first to attack (rather than the Romanian troops) after August 23, 1944.

Florin, I give you just a local example from my place, Arad! The main concentration of German forces was in the area of the airport of Arad! In 24 August 1944 the frontier post nr. 88 was attacked a romanian border guard soldier being wounded. In 25 August 1944 the frontier post nr. 76 had the same fate, being destroyed and the border crossed by about 40 hungarian soldiers. In the Elek area (hungarian side of the border, 25 km to Chisinau Cris) was identified a Hungarian motorized regiment (part of the Hungarian 1st Armoured Division) who attacked in 26 August 1944 on two columns:
- with about 300 men supported by 3 trucks with 4x20mm aa guns mounted on, and 2 Boehler 47mm AT guns the romanian positions in the Varias area (4 km south from the Romanian-Hungarian border) towards Gai, Arad;
- with about 400 men supported by 4 trucks with 4x20mm aa guns mounted on, and 2 Boehler 47mm AT guns the romanian positions towards Turnu near the border;
During this battles about 15 german planes take off from Arad airport attacked the romanian positions from Gai area and also Vinga village (20 km south from Arad).
The attack was stopped by the romanian 2nd Border Guards Battalion on 27 august 1944 with the support of the troops of the Romanian 1st Training Cavalry Division who counterattacked the next day (...).
From the book Dimensiunea istorica a primei operatii a romanilor in razboiul antihitlerist, Ed. Facla, Timisoara, 1985, pag. 118-119.

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on May 03, 2013 10:09 am
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Florin
Posted on May 01, 2013 11:04 pm
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ May 01, 2013 07:39 am)
QUOTE
From this every side reading this topic can understand my confusion, when I claimed that the Hungarian troops were the first to attack (rather than the Romanian troops) after August 23, 1944.

Florin, I give you just a local example from my place, Arad! The main concentration of German forces was in the area of the airport of Arad! In 24 August 1944 the frontier post nr. 88 being wounded a romanian border guard soldier. In 25 August 1944 the frontier post nr. 76 had the same fate, being destroyed and the border crossed by about 40 hungarian soldiers. In the Elek area (hungarian side of the border 25 km to Chisinau Cris) was identified a Hungarian motorized regiment (part of the Hungarian 1st Armoured Division) who attacked in 26 August 1944:
- with about 300 men supported by 3 trucks with 4x20mm aa guns mounted on, and 2 Boehler 47mm AT guns the romanian positions in the Varias area (4 km south from the Romanian-Hungarian border) towards Gai, Arad;
- with about 400 men supported by 4 trucks with 4x20mm aa guns mounted on, and 2 Boehler 47mm AT guns the romanian positions towards Turnu near the border;
During this battles about 15 german planes take off from Arad airport attacked the romanian positions from Gai area and also Vinga village (20 km south from Arad).
The attack was stopped by the romanian 2nd Border Guards Battalion on 27 august 1944 with the support of the troops of the Romanian 1st Training Cavalry Division who counterattacked the next day (...).
From the book Dimensiunea istorica a primei operatii a romanilor in razboiul antihitlerist, Ed. Facla, Timisoara, 1985, pag. 118-119.

Thank you for mentioning these very interesting facts.
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Victor
Posted on May 03, 2013 08:16 am
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There is no need to inflame this topic any further. One post was deleted.
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Dénes
Posted on May 03, 2013 02:01 pm
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Thank you for deleting the politically charged message.

Gen. Dénes
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