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> We should be proud of Eastern Front victories?, about the romanian victories 1941/42
 
Are you proud of Romanian Army victories from Nov.1941-Nov.1942?
-Yes, I am proud for our Army victories from November 1941 onwards! [ 25 ]  [78.12%]
-No, from moral point of view I have no reason to be proud! [ 2 ]  [6.25%]
-There are no "pure" Romanian victories but only in cooperation with the Germans, so... [ 5 ]  [15.62%]
Total Votes: 32
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Dénes
Posted on April 24, 2013 07:33 am
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QUOTE (MMM @ April 24, 2013 01:19 pm)
Do you know something different? ;)

It's not that I know different, the facts speak for themselves.
I will look for some details tonight, but this is OT.

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MMM
  Posted on April 24, 2013 02:27 pm
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QUOTE (Dénes @ April 24, 2013 10:33 am)
but this is OT.


Of course it is, coming from everybody else...
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ANDREAS
Posted on April 24, 2013 09:35 pm
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QUOTE
This "fact" is untrue. The Rumanian border forces crossed the border in Transylvania soon after the 23 August about-face (without a formal declaration of war).

Gen. Dénes


I think it is time to overcome the formalisms or hide behind the finger... In august 1940 Hungary took advantage of opportunity and took back with the help of Germany what they think they are entitled to have: Northern Transylvania (actually they wanted the entire Transylvania) and in august 1944 Romania took advantage of the temporary weakness of Germany so the Romanian Army has reentered the former Romanian province. Unfortunately we (Romanian Army) do not have the necessary strength to take advantage of German collapse from late August 1944 so that the Germans had sufficient time to prepare a relatively strong defense that have delayed us and the Russians for about 1,5 months (September and about half October 1944). This also applies to reverse look, the Hungarians (helped by Germans) did not have enough strength to occupy the southern Transylvania until the massive penetration of Soviet forces into the province in mid september 1944!
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Florin
Posted on April 25, 2013 02:32 am
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ April 24, 2013 04:35 pm)
QUOTE
This "fact" is untrue. The Rumanian border forces crossed the border in Transylvania soon after the 23 August about-face (without a formal declaration of war).

Gen. Dénes


I think it is time to overcome the formalisms or hide behind the finger... In august 1940 Hungary took advantage of opportunity and took back with the help of Germany what they think they are entitled to have: Northern Transylvania (actually they wanted the entire Transylvania) and in august 1944 Romania took advantage of the temporary weakness of Germany so the Romanian Army has reentered the former Romanian province. Unfortunately we (Romanian Army) do not have the necessary strength to take advantage of German collapse from late August 1944 so that the Germans had sufficient time to prepare a relatively strong defense that have delayed us and the Russians for about 1,5 months (September and about half October 1944). This also applies to reverse look, the Hungarians (helped by Germans) did not have enough strength to occupy the southern Transylvania until the massive penetration of Soviet forces into the province in mid september 1944!

Considering my previous quote subject of disagreement with Gen. Denes:
Who started the first military attack in Transylvania after August 23rd, 1944 ?
I just wrote that the first to attack were the Hungarian troops (... and German - the latter not in my quote) .
From a military point of view, it was logical - the attempt to stabilize the front line along the Carpathian Mountains, before Soviet and Romanian reinforcements would reach the area.
Logical indeed, but as Rambo would say, "They drew first blood". ;)

This post has been edited by Florin on April 25, 2013 02:34 am
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Radub
Posted on April 25, 2013 08:35 am
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QUOTE (Florin @ April 25, 2013 02:32 am)
Who started the first military attack in Transylvania after August 23rd, 1944 ?

Who cares? There is no secret/surprise that Romania wanted to take Transylvania back. So, irrespective of who started the "fight", the "fight" was definitely going to happen.

Radu
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Florin
Posted on April 25, 2013 12:31 pm
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QUOTE (Radub @ April 25, 2013 03:35 am)
QUOTE (Florin @ April 25, 2013 02:32 am)
Who started the first military attack in Transylvania after August 23rd, 1944 ?

Who cares? There is no secret/surprise that Romania wanted to take Transylvania back. So, irrespective of who started the "fight", the "fight" was definitely going to happen.

Radu

In the diplomacy and mentality of those days, it mattered.
Remember how carefully the Nazi leadership staged the theater show with Polish Army attacking first, to justify their own action to the rest of the world, compared to the more recent approach of countries like Israel & Company, who just do it first and thinks like you: "Who cares?"

This post has been edited by Florin on April 25, 2013 12:35 pm
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Radub
Posted on April 25, 2013 02:02 pm
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So, let me see if I got this right: you are saying that Romania had no intention to take back Transylvania. The Hungarians started the fight and as a result Romania found itself going to war with Hungary.
When you mention the staged "Germany was attacked by Poland" trick you mean that Romanians actually faked this "they started it" Hungarian attack?

Are you saying that Transylvania is now part of Romania simply by dint of an accident (Romania was tripped by the evil Hungarians) or maybe by dint of a trick (Romania faked a "they started it" Hungarian attack) and not becasue Romanians wanted to take it back.

Diplomacy shmiplomacy! Everyone knew that Romania had every intention to take back Transylvania. Why would Romania need to masquerade a "provocation" to do it?

Radu
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Florin
Posted on April 26, 2013 10:41 am
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QUOTE (Radub @ April 25, 2013 09:02 am)
So, let me see if I got this right: you are saying that Romania had no intention to take back Transylvania. The Hungarians started the fight and as a result Romania found itself going to war with Hungary.
When you mention the staged "Germany was attacked by Poland" trick you mean that Romanians actually faked this "they started it" Hungarian attack?

Are you saying that Transylvania is now part of Romania simply by dint of an accident (Romania was tripped by the evil Hungarians) or maybe by dint of a trick (Romania faked a "they started it" Hungarian attack) and not becasue Romanians wanted to take it back.

Diplomacy shmiplomacy! Everyone knew that Romania had every intention to take back Transylvania. Why would Romania need to masquerade a "provocation" to do it?

Radu

I was considering to not answer at all to your last comments. If I would not do it, it meant to accept them.
No, I did not claim anything of what you wrote. There are rare occasions when you twist things in a way that shock me - for a short moment.

Yes, the Romanians would attack if the Hungarians and Germans would not do it first.
I just tried to remind that the continuation of war after August 23, that ended with the occupation of Hungary, was not a monotone one way conquer. The Romanians saw themselves in defensive in many occasions - including at the very beginning of that part of war.
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Radub
Posted on April 26, 2013 11:38 am
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QUOTE (Florin @ April 26, 2013 10:41 am)
There are rare occasions when you twist things in a way that shock me - for a short moment.

There is no "twist". Facts are facts! Look at it logically.
Romania wanted to take Transylvania back. The loss of Transylvania was a severe trauma that affected Romanians at the time and Romanians wanted it back, just to close a festering open wound.
What you said was basically that somehow Romania went to war with Hungary just because Hungary "started it" and Romanians could not stand the affront.
Fact is that Romania intended to fight to take Transylvania back, no matter who "started it". Romania did not go to war with Hungary just to have a brawl with Hungarians. They did not go to war in the west just to push the Germans out (the Russians were doing that anyway) Romania could have said "we had enough of war, we stop here". They did not. Why? Because Romania went to war in the West to take back Transylvania and secure it. So... who cares who "started it"?

Anyway, what is the point of this in a thread about "victories on the Eastern Front"?

Radu
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Florin
Posted on April 26, 2013 02:05 pm
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Radu, my original comment was:
"Just as a fact, the Hungarian-Romanian conflict following the 23rd of August, 1944, started with the Romanian troops in defensive and with the Hungarian troops in offensive, the latter crossing the border as it was after the Vienna Treaty of August 1940."

As I said: "Just as a fact". I did not claim anything.
Yes, I had expected answers, even some anger - so I do not claim innocence.
But it looks it was a snowball rolling out of control ...
PS: At the time I wrote that text, people before me already touched the war after August 1944 under this topic.

This post has been edited by Florin on April 26, 2013 02:05 pm
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Dénes
Posted on April 27, 2013 08:20 am
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Let's return to the facts.

Excerpt from a report of Corpul vanatorilor de munte, 30 Aug., 8:15:
"In urma incursiunilor facute in noaptea de 29/30 August peste frontiera: La Valcele (Tekerőpatak), focuri, la Sfantu Gheorghe (Sepsiszentgyörgy), focuri puternice (...)".

Another document of 1st Rumanian Army, dated 30 August 1944, 17:00:
"1, satul Valcele (Tekerőpatak) a fost cucerit..."

Rumania declared war on Hungary only on 7 Sept. (IIRC).

Gen. Dénes
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ANDREAS
Posted on April 27, 2013 08:52 am
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QUOTE
Let's return to the facts.
Excerpt from a report of Corpul vanatorilor de munte, 30 Aug., 8:15:
"In urma incursiunilor facute in noaptea de 29/30 August peste frontiera: La Valcele (Tekerőpatak), focuri, la Sfantu Gheorghe (Sepsiszentgyörgy), focuri puternice (...)".
Another document of 1st Rumanian Army, dated 30 August 1944, 17:00:
"1, satul Valcele (Tekerőpatak) a fost cucerit..."
Rumania declared war on Hungary only on 7 Sept. (IIRC).
Gen. Dénes

For the sake of the game let's suppose that Romanian Troops attacked first the positions of the Hungarian troops beyond the borders arbitrarily set by Hitler and Mussolini in summer 1940 in Transylvania... this would mean what? I ask because I do not understand what would that mean and what would be the consequences of this fact?
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Florin
Posted on April 27, 2013 09:35 am
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QUOTE (Dénes @ April 27, 2013 03:20 am)
Let's return to the facts.

Excerpt from a report of Corpul vanatorilor de munte, 30 Aug., 8:15:
"In urma incursiunilor facute in noaptea de 29/30 August peste frontiera: La Valcele (Tekerőpatak), focuri, la Sfantu Gheorghe (Sepsiszentgyörgy), focuri puternice (...)".

Another document of 1st Rumanian Army, dated 30 August 1944, 17:00:
"1, satul Valcele (Tekerőpatak) a fost cucerit..."

Rumania declared war on Hungary only on 7 Sept. (IIRC).

Gen. Dénes

OK...
So, according to you, there was no Hungarian offensive action before the night of August 29/30, 1944. Of course I accept this point, until I will learn something proving the opposite.
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Dénes
Posted on April 30, 2013 10:26 am
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ April 27, 2013 02:52 pm)
For the sake of the game let's suppose...

This is not a game, these are not suppositions, these are historical facts.
I am really tired to repeat over and over again the same basic things after all those years.

Politics should be set aside, as it's the death of history.
If some facts are unconfortable for some, it's these people's personal issue, they should overcome it (or not).
Until this can be achieved, it's pointless any further discussions.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 30, 2013 10:27 am
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luciang
Posted on April 30, 2013 12:26 pm
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Clearly the discussion has gone off topic but - related also to the poll which is the subject of this thread - I believe this illustrates how difficult it is to untangle the various perspectives when trying to evaluate these historical events.
Now, regarding the post 23rd of august 1944 military actions, this is a quote from king Michael's proclamation broadcasted on radio during that evening:

"Side by side with the allied armies and with their help, by mobilizing all forces of the Nation, we will cross the borders imposed by the unjust Vienna document in order to free our Transylvania's land from foreign domination."

I believe that after this declaration it's hard to claim that any military action came by surprise. Also, further diplomatic actions between the two countries - which seems to have taken place, for instance, on the 30th of August 1944 - would be a natural consequence of this statement.

Lucian G.
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