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> Biggest loss for Romanian Army, Just comparing apples with oranges :)
 
Which is the most "costly" battle lost by the Romanian Army?
A. Stalingrad [ 9 ]  [60.00%]
B. The 1916 retreat(s) [ 4 ]  [26.67%]
C. The 20.08-12.09.1944 catastrophe [ 2 ]  [13.33%]
D. Another one [ 0 ]  [0.00%]
Total Votes: 15
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adicontakt
Posted on December 10, 2012 04:15 pm
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QUOTE (ocoleanui @ December 10, 2012 02:25 pm)
Stalingrad vote .This battle is unique in the history of Romanian Army .We lost aprox 200.000 mens (deads,Kia,wounded ) .In 1944 and 1916 was many prisoners , but we lost our territory . What happend at Stalingrad is too cruel for our army (defeat ,Oranki ,Manastarka ,Karaganda etc ) .
By.

i heard that almost 100000 casualities from hungarian army in 1942 - 1943 was romanian ethnics from transylvania so to cost was much bigger
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Dénes
Posted on December 10, 2012 06:44 pm
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Regardless of their ethnicity, those were Hungarian soldiers. They cannot be counted as Rumanian casualties by any means.

Gen. Dénes
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Florin
Posted on December 10, 2012 10:12 pm
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QUOTE (MMM @ December 10, 2012 09:49 am)
@Florin: again, I must state clear what I wanted to be "understood": the Romanian Army did NOT fight at Stalingrad. Yes, there were some units - actually most of the fighting force - but they didn't just get there "like that". We were part of a much bigger game (or automobile, whatever...) which we didn't start and surely didn't finish from our own will! Mostly that's why I didn't vote for Stalingrad, because I consider that it was NOT a defeat of the Romanian Army.
............

Around Stalingrad was a gigantic battle not only considering number of people and quantity of equipment, but also its spread in space. Yes, the Romanian involvement in the city itself was neglectable. But I guess the Germans encircled in the city were cursing our army – for what happened in the north and in the south of it. Not only because it was more convenient than to blame their own "invincible" army…
When people refer to the "Battle of Kiev" from 1941 they do not refer only to the city of Kiev, but also to the huge encirclement that ended with 750,000 Soviet prisoners. When people refer to the "Battle of Moskow", remember that only few German advanced units saw the city through binoculars! It was not a battle in Moscow, but a battle over hundreds of kilometers in frozen fields around Moskow.
I have nothing against separating the events into the "Battle of Stalingrad" and the "Battle of the Don’s Bend", but they were like twins of the same family.
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Florin
Posted on December 10, 2012 11:29 pm
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QUOTE (Dénes @ December 10, 2012 01:44 pm)
Regardless of their ethnicity, those were Hungarian soldiers. They cannot be counted as Rumanian casualties by any means.

Gen. Dénes

That is correct.
It would be however interesting to know how many Romanians died while in service with the Hungarian Army. That supposing there is reliable source of information, not "i heard that..." - as "adicontakt" wrote. I guess it would be a difficult process, considering the custom to use in official statistics names changed to sound Hungarian.
+
I am curious… What happened with the Romanian ethnics from northern Transylvania still serving military duty in Hungarian Army, after August 23, 1944? Were they allowed to continue as Hungarian military personnel?

This post has been edited by Florin on December 10, 2012 11:33 pm
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Radub
Posted on December 11, 2012 11:08 am
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Are we talking about "loss" of personnel and equipment? Then that is just a matter of comparing figures.

Are we talking about long-term "loss"? Then, the biggest "disaster for Romania" was what followed after 23 August. We are still suffering from the after-effects (look at last week's elections!). Could Romania fight against Russian-backed communismn and win? No... So, it was basically a life-sentence without chance of appeal.

Radu
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Florin
Posted on December 11, 2012 04:50 pm
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QUOTE (Radub @ December 11, 2012 06:08 am)
Are we talking about "loss" of personnel and equipment? Then that is just a matter of comparing figures.

Are we talking about long-term "loss"? Then, the biggest "disaster for Romania" was what followed after 23 August. We are still suffering from the after-effects (look at last week's elections!). Could Romania fight against Russian-backed communismn and win? No... So, it was basically a life-sentence without chance of appeal.

Radu

Very good words... I would "thumb up" in a "Comments" section.
But... What was first? The egg or the hen? Are not the events of August 23, 1944 a result of those occuring in Novermber 1942? :)
(Somebody here already stated an equivalent to my last sentence.)

This post has been edited by Florin on December 11, 2012 04:50 pm
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MMM
Posted on December 11, 2012 05:03 pm
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QUOTE (Florin @ December 11, 2012 07:50 pm)
Are not the events of August 23, 1944 a result of those occuring in Novermber 1942? :)

...and those a result of 06.12.41 (the Soviet counter-offensive at the gates of Moscow) and that a result of etc. etc. etc. down to the Ribentropp-Molotov Pact?
I wouldn't bet on 23.08 being a direct result of Stalingrad, without Kursk and a lot of other misfortunate decisions, including the decision of not withdrawing the front to the FNB line!
@Radub: that was my idea for including 20.08.1944, not for the human losses per se, clearly lower than 1942 or 1916.
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Radub
Posted on December 11, 2012 06:24 pm
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QUOTE (Florin @ December 11, 2012 04:50 pm)
QUOTE (Radub @ December 11, 2012 06:08 am)
Could Romania fight against Russian-backed communismn and win? No... So, it was basically a life-sentence without chance of appeal.


What was first? The egg or the hen? Are not the events of August 23, 1944 a result of those occuring in Novermber 1942

Hence my line about "fighting Russian-backed Communism"...
Romania's fate was sealed when Russia started to halt the Axis advance and began to turn the tide. And that was well before the collapse of Stalingrad - keep in mind that the Stalingrad collapse was when the tide turned decidedly in favour of the Russians in just one area of the front but the Russians were holding the Axis back for a while before that in other places.
Equally, 23 August is just a symbol of Romania's predicament that began well before that.
Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on December 11, 2012 06:25 pm
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