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Imperialist
Posted: October 14, 2012 04:26 pm
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QUOTE (Radub @ October 14, 2012 09:45 am)
I am not going to be drawn into your innuendo and inference. Read what you want in what I said.
Radu


In your opinion, is the map Denes posted accurate or inaccurate?

Straightforward, on topic question. No innuendo.

This post has been edited by Imperialist on October 14, 2012 04:27 pm
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ANDREAS
Posted: October 14, 2012 04:58 pm
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In order to speak on the subject about the contested maps, I appreciate as for example erroneous the map of Europe from year 1100, more precisely the extent of Hungarian occupation of Transylvania! Based on several well-documented books (Romanian of course, so biased :lol:) Hungarian domination was stretched in some southern areas (Brasov, Sibiu, Alba, Hunedoara f.i.) and northern (Maramures) around the years 1150-1200, and not before...
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MMM
Posted: October 14, 2012 05:37 pm
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QUOTE (Imperialist @ October 14, 2012 07:26 pm)
QUOTE (Radub @ October 14, 2012 09:45 am)
I am not going to be drawn into your innuendo and inference. Read what you want in what I said.
Radu


In your opinion, is the map Denes posted accurate or inaccurate?

Straightforward, on topic question. No innuendo.

Not as much "inaccurate" as "incomplete", I'd say; and, technically speaking, Denes just posted a link to a map, hence this almost-war topic!
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Ferdinand
Posted: October 14, 2012 05:39 pm
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QUOTE (Victor @ October 14, 2012 12:56 pm)
It's your own problem if you dislike Denes or anybody else on this forum.

Victor i said that i'm sick of his comments, i didn't met Denes so i can't say that i dislike him. He also knows that the things between magyars and romanians are sensitive and i think that he must take some care in future posting.
Just an example... a german goes to visit Jerusalem and he talks about his grandfather that he was a awarded hero of Waffen SS, while jewish people are present, is this ok?
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Ferdinand
Posted: October 14, 2012 05:45 pm
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QUOTE (Dénes @ October 10, 2012 06:02 am)

How much this map reflects the point of view of the current Rumanian historiography?

Also, there was no one in Transylvania?

What is your opinion?

Gen. Dénes

Look how he put the problem. What was his expectation...that all of us would said, YES THERE WAS NOBADY HERE!

There is an old saying:

"You do not speak of rope in the house of hanged man!"

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Radub
Posted: October 14, 2012 06:35 pm
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QUOTE (Imperialist @ October 14, 2012 04:26 pm)
QUOTE (Radub @ October 14, 2012 09:45 am)
I am not going to be drawn into your innuendo and inference. Read what you want in what I said.
Radu


In your opinion, is the map Denes posted accurate or inaccurate?

Straightforward, on topic question. No innuendo.

I have nothing to clarify. Read what you want.

The one who keeps going on about "inaccurate maps" is you. Now you keep baiting and trolling me into explaining WHAT YOU MEAN?

Leave me out of it.

Radu
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Florin
Posted: October 14, 2012 07:51 pm
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ October 14, 2012 06:20 am)
......... But about Romania (territory inhabited by Romanians to be precise) I found a lot of inaccuracies and even gross errors ..............that does not surprise me (the maps) because I know from my own experience that "our version" of history is not known (and sometime accepted) but the hungarian-russian one (I say this because f.i. maps of Slavic (early Russian) kingdoms include northern Moldova as well) so...
The fact that we do not popularize our history acting individually or thru Romanian state is not UDMR or Hungarian fault, they only follow their interests how best they can... and they make that as a "permanent job" from 1867 onwards... why don't we learn nothing?

One problem is that since Mircea Eliade and few others like him died, in West there are not many people in well placed academic or prestigious positions of Romanian origin.
Usually the Romanians abroad succeed as engineers or physicians/doctors, and this does not help "the cause".
I think a bigger problem is that the Romanian government and the rich Romanians are not willing to pay publishing houses abroad to print our history (with photocopies of original documents or artifacts) in English.
I can give an example - in the 1980's, when all Eastern Europe was still Socialist, historians from Hungary published "History of Transylvania", and the Socialist Hungarian government paid for the English translation, publishing and distribution in West. They did not care that the government of the neighboring Socialist ally Romania will get upset about it.
* * *
When after that in Romania was published that book about the Hungarian occupation of Transylvania during 1940-1944, with a preliminary explanation of previous times (1867 and earlier), not only that it was not translated into English, but also the Romanian edition was not re-printed, in spite of the fact that people were struggling to get that book that literally "disappeared" before arriving into store shelves. Before 1989, you had to "know someone" to obtain it. I forgot who was "pila"/personal relation of my family that provided us that book.
* * *
Even though both countries were Socialist, in the late 1980's Hungary got into better and better terms with the West, while Romania did vice-versa. This did not help the matter discussed here.

This post has been edited by Florin on October 14, 2012 07:59 pm
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horia
Posted: October 14, 2012 08:00 pm
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Denes, if you wanted a professional opinion, you should have asked for an opinion from the Romanain historians, and therefore you should have addressed your inquiry towards the Romanian Academy or the Romanian Museu of History (by the way, for an official POV I highly recommend this book http://www.librariaatlas.ro/academia-romana-a-4854.html), although I suspect you already knew the answer you would have received from these institutons, you've study them even in Romania, and there is the same POV since Romanian history exists.

The book that I recommend is the fruit of labor of many professional historians. Unfortunately, you, not being a professional hstorian, you took the problem from a wrong POV, you took as refference some measly ideas, who do not represent POVs from nobody (not even from the Hungarian history even), posted on the net by ill-wished or stupid individuals. It is not the first time when you act in such manner, and let me believe you are not so naïve so that you would not presume the outcome of these discussions. The fact that you've opened a meaningless topic lead me to believe you have a different agenda. On the rest, all the collateral discussions have no meaning for me whatsoever.
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muggs
Posted: October 14, 2012 08:04 pm
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Guys please, do we have to have such a thread every month ? Instead of using this forum to have constructive discussions all i see is someone throwing fuel on the fire and others coming quickly to drop some more.

This post has been edited by muggs on October 14, 2012 08:09 pm
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Alexei2102
Posted: October 14, 2012 08:07 pm
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What is the meaning of this useless topic ?
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ANDREAS
Posted: October 14, 2012 08:17 pm
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Florin, I agree with your arguments and join them, but I maintain my opinion that we do as individuals less to popularize our country history compared to Hungarians...
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Dénes
Posted: October 14, 2012 08:45 pm
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QUOTE (horia @ October 15, 2012 02:00 am)
It is not the first time when you act in such manner, and let me believe you are not so naïve so that you would not presume the outcome of these discussions. The fact that you've opened a meaningless topic lead me to believe you have a different agenda.

Horia, I am surprised by your post. I did not expect you to write in this manner, alluding that somehow I am the guilty one for all the extreme outburst that followed. Anyhow...

Tell me, which part of my previous post, explaining this thread is unclear to you?
""As mentioned, I found this series of maps by accident, being advertised on the bottom of this forum. I simply wanted to ask other members' opinion about it, from a purely historical approach.""

Also, would you care to explain your sentence: ""It is not the first time when you act in such manner..."

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on October 14, 2012 08:47 pm
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Imperialist
Posted: October 14, 2012 08:56 pm
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QUOTE (Radub @ October 14, 2012 06:35 pm)
I have nothing to clarify. Read what you want.

The one who keeps going on about "inaccurate maps" is you. Now you keep baiting and trolling me into explaining WHAT YOU MEAN?

Leave me out of it.

Radu

I simply asked you whether you think the map is accurate or inaccurate to avoid misreading an earlier statement you made, that's all.

Since you refuse to clarify what you meant earlier in the thread, my reading of what you said is that you think the map is accurate and it tells a "painful truth" about Romania and the messenger that delivered this "painful truth" (happened to be Denes in this case) should not be attacked by the others because exposing painful truths about your country is not lack of patriotism.

I'm not surprised you dodged my simple question. You generally make snide remarks about those that have a clearcut opinion about a certain issue yet when someone asks you for your clear opinion on an issue (yes/no, black/white, day/night, correct/incorrect) you usually dodge the questions because you want to avoid committing yourself to an opinion. You like to stay in the grey area, the muddy waters from which you can criticize other people's opinions without risking to have your own criticized.
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Florin
Posted: October 14, 2012 09:53 pm
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ October 14, 2012 03:17 pm)
Florin, I agree with your arguments and join them, but I maintain my opinion that we do as individuals less to popularize our country history compared to Hungarians...

On the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, south of The Great Lakes, people not only are not interested in the history of Europe, but they don't know their own history.
The Universe is revolving around Wrestling, Baseball, Football (not soccer), Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition, Affirmative Action, Gay Pride, Facebook and Twitter.
You are suddenly a weird person when you know too much of anything.
* * *
What Romanians from abroad can do is to pay for translation and printing of various Romanian historical works.
But a very realistic situation will be for these books to stay years on shelves with no buyers, like many other books. The problem is not financial - once you had decided to pay for printing, you do not hope to get money there (consider it a donation). You cannot imagine how many good books stay on shelves while people have no interest in buying them.
So the only way to "spread the message" would be to offer these translations for free to libraries or private persons.

This post has been edited by Florin on October 14, 2012 11:59 pm
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Radub
Posted: October 14, 2012 10:18 pm
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QUOTE (Imperialist @ October 14, 2012 08:56 pm)
QUOTE (Radub @ October 14, 2012 06:35 pm)
I have nothing to clarify. Read what you want.

The one who keeps going on about "inaccurate maps" is you. Now you keep baiting and trolling me into explaining WHAT YOU MEAN?

Leave me out of it.

Radu

I simply asked you whether you think the map is accurate or inaccurate to avoid misreading an earlier statement you made, that's all.

Since you refuse to clarify what you meant earlier in the thread, my reading of what you said is that you think the map is accurate and it tells a "painful truth" about Romania and the messenger that delivered this "painful truth" (happened to be Denes in this case) should not be attacked by the others because exposing painful truths about your country is not lack of patriotism.

I'm not surprised you dodged my simple question. You generally make snide remarks about those that have a clearcut opinion about a certain issue yet when someone asks you for your clear opinion on an issue (yes/no, black/white, day/night, correct/incorrect) you usually dodge the questions because you want to avoid committing yourself to an opinion. You like to stay in the grey area, the muddy waters from which you can criticize other people's opinions without risking to have your own criticized.

Imperialist!
I urged you many times to leave me out of this. You are making stuff up and attributing it to me. Then you ask me to clarify this made-up stuff. And when I refuse to engage in this, you act as if I am doing somethig wrong.

You are taking things I said out of context. The context also included the words "let us keep this friendly" but I do not see you paying much attention to them.

I made no snide remarks about anyone's clear cut opinions. For most of this entire thread, ALL of my posts were asking you to leave me in peace. I am not interested ina row with you.

I never used the words "painful truths". You said that.

I do not know what "message" Denes "delivered". In as far as I can see, he "asked" a question about a map on a website run by someone else. But even so, why does it matter to you what I think about Denes's questions? He is a free man in a free world and he can do whatever he wants. I am not "the boss of Denes".

Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on October 14, 2012 10:20 pm
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