Romanian Military History Forum - Part of Romanian Army in the Second World War Website



Pages: (3) 1 [2] 3   ( Go to first unread post ) Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

> Lunca de Sus Sept. 1944 (Carpathians)
Agarici
Posted: September 19, 2012 11:51 pm
Quote Post


Maior
*

Group: Members
Posts: 742
Member No.: 522
Joined: February 24, 2005



QUOTE (aidan zea @ September 19, 2012 08:29 pm)
The hungarian 3rd Tank Regiment /2nd Armored Division received in early mai 1944 10 heavy tanks Pz. VI Tiger E, 12 medium tanks Pz. IV H and 10 assault guns StuG. III G as a compensation for the heavy losses in the battles during april 1944 on the eastern front. In august 1944 the 2nd Armored Division 3rd Tank Regiment had only 3 remaining Pz. VI Tiger E operable, who were retreated back in Hungary. When the Regiment was send in Northern Transylvania he received in Someseni 20 new Pz.IV H and 5 Pz.V Panther A. The regiment used this tanks together with hungarian produced Turan I and II medium tanks in the fightings with soviet and romanian forces in Northern Transylvania.


So the 3 running Tigers were sent in Transylvania too? What about the rest of the machines delivered in Spring 1944 (Pz IVs and Stugs), how many of those survived?

Do you have a total number for the Hungarian armor employed in that operation?
PMEmail Poster
Top
Dénes
Posted: September 20, 2012 05:49 am
Quote Post


Host
Group Icon

Group: Hosts
Posts: 4347
Member No.: 4
Joined: June 17, 2003



QUOTE (aidan zea @ September 20, 2012 02:29 am)
In august 1944 the 2nd Armored Division 3rd Tank Regiment had only 3 remaining Pz. VI Tiger E operable, who were retreated back in Hungary. When the Regiment was send in Northern Transylvania in early september 1944 he received in Someseni 20 new Pz.IV H and 5 Pz.V Panther A.

These armour (and other heavy weapons) were originally intended to be delivered to the Rumanians, but following the 23 August about-face they were handed over to the Hungarians, who used them in combat in Transylvania.

Gen. Dénes
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
aidan zea
Posted: September 20, 2012 01:52 pm
Quote Post


Caporal
*

Group: Members
Posts: 102
Member No.: 3341
Joined: July 04, 2012



Agarici, from what I have found in the book written by Számvéber Norbert and called Páncélosok a Tiszántúlon (Az alföldi páncéloscsata 1944 októberében) the 3 heavy tanks Pz.VI Tiger I were present in Turda area in early october 1944 where they took part in the heavy battles! But as I readed I can be almost sure that they arrive maybe in late september 1944 in Northern Transylvania after the soviet troops were present in large numbers.
Denes, I have no indication about this but I can bet you are right! What I surely know is that a number of Jagdpanzer 38 Hetzer were intended for Romanian Army, but because of the "defection", they were given to the hungarian troops.
PMEmail Poster
Top
paul panzer
Posted: September 20, 2012 03:27 pm
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 29
Member No.: 1604
Joined: September 23, 2007



Well this is almost evolving to a new topic far away from Lunca de Sus ;)

This post has been edited by paul panzer on September 20, 2012 03:33 pm
PMEmail Poster
Top
mabadesc
Posted: September 20, 2012 04:44 pm
Quote Post


Locotenent colonel
*

Group: Members
Posts: 803
Member No.: 40
Joined: July 11, 2003



QUOTE
What I surely know is that a number of Jagdpanzer 38 Hetzer were intended for Romanian Army...


This is interesting information, Adrian! Could you please elaborate a little or reference your source? How many Hetzers were intended for delivery to Romania, what month(s) was the delivery scheduled for, were negotiations concluded, etc..?

Thanks in advance for any additional information you may have.
PM
Top
Florin
Posted: September 20, 2012 05:40 pm
Quote Post


General de corp de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1866
Member No.: 17
Joined: June 22, 2003



QUOTE (paul panzer @ September 20, 2012 10:27 am)
Well this is almost evolving to a new topic far away from Lunca de Sus ;)

Military equipment used by the opposing sides in Transylvania in Autumn 1944 is not a subject too "far away" from the topic opened by you. If people will be strictly focused on "Lunca de Sus" the thread will die soon... ;)
PM
Top
aidan zea
Posted: September 20, 2012 07:05 pm
Quote Post


Caporal
*

Group: Members
Posts: 102
Member No.: 3341
Joined: July 04, 2012



mabadesc, in a book I have dedicated to Hetzer light tank destroyer, it is written that aware of growing problems of the series production of Maresal tank destroyer the romanians and germans agreed on import of an unknown number of Hetzers for romanian army! It's written that the first delivery should start in 25 august 1944 with 15 Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzers for an romanian unit from the Moldavian front. This delivery was not a problem for the germans as from the beginning of august five infantry divisions (german of course) from the moldavian front received 72 Hetzers (each division 14 tank destroyers) before the start of Iasi-Chisinau operation. These 15 Hetzers intended for romanian army were used by the germans and hungarians in their operations in Northern Transylvania.
PMEmail Poster
Top
ANDREAS
Posted: September 20, 2012 11:28 pm
Quote Post


Locotenent colonel
*

Group: Members
Posts: 814
Member No.: 2421
Joined: March 15, 2009



In the battle of Lunca de Sus on the hungarian-german side were the hungarian 32. Border Hunter Battalion and various small armored and motorized units from the german LVII. Panzer-Korps command (elements of the Battle Group of the 20. Panzer Division). The german-hungarian troops were using a small number of tanks (including few Pz.IIIM and Pz.IVH), assault guns (some StuG.IIIG), trucks and tractors and few heavy antitank guns fought by soviet forces including our Armored Detachment Lt.col. Gh.Matei.
PMEmail PosterYahoo
Top
Agarici
Posted: September 21, 2012 05:48 pm
Quote Post


Maior
*

Group: Members
Posts: 742
Member No.: 522
Joined: February 24, 2005



After all, which were the number and composition of the Soviet-Romanian armoured forces in Lunca de Sus battle?
PMEmail Poster
Top
ANDREAS
Posted: November 10, 2012 11:39 pm
Quote Post


Locotenent colonel
*

Group: Members
Posts: 814
Member No.: 2421
Joined: March 15, 2009



The romanian Armored Detachment "Lieutenant colonel Gh. Matei" supported the soviet 6th Rifle (Infantry) Division "Orlovskaya" in the battle for the forcing of the pass Ghimes Palanca and penetration into Transylvania. These were the forces who confronted the hungarian 32. Border Hunter Battalion and german armored elements of the LVII. Panzer-Korps command. The latter had (source: Hitze, Frost und Pulverdampf - Der Schicksalsweg der 20. Panzer-Division - Rolf Hinze, Verlag Hinze, Meerbusch 1991- in german) 1 Pz.III K, 5 Pz.IV H, 9 StuG.III G and 1 StuH.42 G so they confronted similar type of armor of the romanian Armored Detachment. The book mentions that the german armor was soon retreated from the area to be used in central Transylvania where it was much needed!
PMEmail PosterYahoo
Top
Dénes
Posted: November 11, 2012 08:03 am
Quote Post


Host
Group Icon

Group: Hosts
Posts: 4347
Member No.: 4
Joined: June 17, 2003



Very good information. Thanks.

Gen. Dénes
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Agarici
Posted: November 11, 2012 08:10 pm
Quote Post


Maior
*

Group: Members
Posts: 742
Member No.: 522
Joined: February 24, 2005



QUOTE (ANDREAS @ November 10, 2012 11:39 pm)
The romanian Armored Detachment "Lieutenant colonel Gh. Matei" supported the soviet 6th Rifle (Infantry) Division "Orlovskaya" in the battle for the forcing of the pass Ghimes Palanca and penetration into Transylvania. These were the forces who confronted the hungarian 32. Border Hunter Battalion and german armored elements of the LVII. Panzer-Korps command. The latter had (source: Hitze, Frost und Pulverdampf - Der Schicksalsweg der 20. Panzer-Division - Rolf Hinze, Verlag Hinze, Meerbusch 1991- in german) 1 Pz.III K, 5 Pz.IV H, 9 StuG.III G and 1 StuH.42 G so they confronted similar type of armor of the romanian Armored Detachment. The book mentions that the german armor was soon retreated from the area to be used in central Transylvania where it was much needed!


To those, according to this site, Armored Detachment "Lieutenant colonel Gh. Matei" opposed two companies of similar 9 T 4 (Pz IV H) and 7 Tas (Stug III G). What about the Hungarian armour, was it present in the area?

Thank you for your help, Andreeas!
PMEmail Poster
Top
ANDREAS
Posted: November 11, 2012 10:41 pm
Quote Post


Locotenent colonel
*

Group: Members
Posts: 814
Member No.: 2421
Joined: March 15, 2009



Sorry Agarici I posted only what I have found! So I have no ideea if hungarian armor was present there or not! What I do know is that in autumn 1944 several companies of light tanks Toldi-II/A were given to strengthening the attack forces of the 8th SS Cavalry Division "Florian Geyer" just as the germans send the surviving Jagdpz 38(t) Hetzer assault gun companies to support some hungarian units!
Welcome Denes, I'm glad that the information is useful! I would be interested to read or hear how this tank battle would have held with same type of armor on both sides...

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on November 11, 2012 10:48 pm
PMEmail PosterYahoo
Top
mabadesc
Posted: November 12, 2012 03:15 pm
Quote Post


Locotenent colonel
*

Group: Members
Posts: 803
Member No.: 40
Joined: July 11, 2003



QUOTE
mabadesc, in a book I have dedicated to Hetzer light tank destroyer, it is written that aware of growing problems of the series production of Maresal tank destroyer the romanians and germans agreed on import of an unknown number of Hetzers for romanian army! It's written that the first delivery should start in 25 august 1944 with 15 Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzers for an romanian unit from the Moldavian front. This delivery was not a problem for the germans as from the beginning of august five infantry divisions (german of course) from the moldavian front received 72 Hetzers (each division 14 tank destroyers) before the start of Iasi-Chisinau operation. These 15 Hetzers intended for romanian army were used by the germans and hungarians in their operations in Northern Transylvania.


Thanks, for the info, Aidan! I know I'm going into details, but does your book specify which German divisions received the 72 Hetzers? Were they delivered to divisions which remained assigned to the Moldova Front through Aug. 23?

On a separate note, does the book draw any parallels between the Hetzer and the Maresal? Does it imply one design was influenced by another? When and how did Hetzer design commence? I am asking because there is an old but ongoing Hetzer/Maresal discussion on this forum. :)

Sorry for going slightly off-topic.

This post has been edited by mabadesc on November 12, 2012 03:21 pm
PM
Top
aidan zea
Posted: November 13, 2012 05:40 pm
Quote Post


Caporal
*

Group: Members
Posts: 102
Member No.: 3341
Joined: July 04, 2012



mabadesc in the book is mentioned that besides the 5 divisions who actually received the 72 Jagdpanzer 38 (Hetzer) which were: the 15th, 76th, 335th, 79th, 257th Infantry Divisions other two german and one (unknown) romanian Infantry Divisions must receive 43 Jpz. 38 (14 Jpz. 38 to the german 306th Infantry Division, 14 Jpz. 38 to the german 376th Infantry Division and 15 Jpz. 38 to one unknown romanian Infantry Division) until the late august 1944. The german 306th and 376th Divisions were both destroyed in august and the materiel send in Transylvania in early september 1944 was used by the new formed StuG Abt 1219 (Sturmgeschutz Abteilung -Assault Gun Battalion). Other surviving Jagdpanzer 38 (Hetzer) from the moldavian front were redeployed in Transylvania and entered into composition of 1335, 1179 and 1257 StuG Abt present there. But the author of the book expresses his doubts that these units (1335, 1179 and 1257 StuG Abt) were present and actually took part in the battles from late august 1944 on the moldavian front, considering the fact that their parent divisions (335th, 79th, 257th Infantry Divisions) were completely destroyed there so... he assumed that these units were stationed behind the front line, in the rear, for crew training! What is sure is that some of these formations actively participated in battles in early and mid-september 1944 in the composition of both german and hungarian units from Transylvania, supporting them!
In the book there can be found no positive appreciations towards the Romanian tank hunter program, even if the project and the prototypes were rated as very good! The problem was that a solid platform lacked (an armored vehicle that can be transformed into a tank hunter) and the production cost were very high involving special problems which could not be easily overcome!

This post has been edited by aidan zea on November 13, 2012 06:08 pm
PMEmail Poster
Top
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

Topic Options Pages: (3) 1 [2] 3  Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

 






[ Script Execution time: 0.0386 ]   [ 14 queries used ]   [ GZIP Enabled ]