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> Lunca de Sus Sept. 1944 (Carpathians)
paul panzer
Posted: September 04, 2012 02:25 pm
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Are there any detailed descriptions of the fights of the Romanian army in the area of LUNCA DE JOS and LUNCA DE SUS (Eastern Carpathians) in September 1944?

When were these vicinities first approached and then definitely taken?

What was the direction of the attacks?

I understand that the "Gheorghe Matei" armoured detachment participated.

I am grateful for any info (since I speak French I can more or less decipher romanian).
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Dénes
Posted: September 04, 2012 06:35 pm
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QUOTE (paul panzer @ September 04, 2012 08:25 pm)
Are there any detailed descriptions of the fights of the Romanian army in the area of LUNCA DE JOS and LUNCA DE SUS (Eastern Carpathians) in September 1944?

I checked a few sources, but could not find any reference to combat activity in these localities.
What I found were details of fights around Lunca and Lunca Muresului (in the former Turda county).

Gen. Dénes
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sebipatru
Posted: September 04, 2012 08:22 pm
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i live in a village Lunca Calnicului, between Brasov and Sf Gheorghe, in eastern Carpathians, but in area fought only blue batery,
there are a few more villages with similar names, Lunca Ozunului, Lunca Marcusului
.....but not Sus, Jos
maybe something more deep in Covasna country??????

This post has been edited by sebipatru on September 04, 2012 08:23 pm
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Dénes
Posted: September 05, 2012 05:58 am
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Both villages are real, located in Harghita County, populated by Hungarians, close to the former Rumanian-Hungarian border. Only that I could not find references to combat there in Rumanian sources. I should check the Hungarian ones, as there was a large Hungarian Army barracks there.

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This post has been edited by Dénes on September 05, 2012 06:21 am
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paul panzer
Posted: September 05, 2012 02:35 pm
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QUOTE (Dénes @ September 05, 2012 05:58 am)
Both villages are real, located in Harghita County, populated by Hungarians, close to the former Rumanian-Hungarian border. Only that I could not find references to combat there in Rumanian sources. I should check the Hungarian ones, as there was a large Hungarian Army barracks there.

Gen. Dénes

This is the place from where I have the (from my side unchecked) info

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Immediately after 23 August 1944, very many Romanian units were disarmed by the Soviets and their men sent into captivity, although the Romanian and Soviet Armies had recently become allied. There escaped from this harsh fate the units which had succeeded in time to cross over to the side of the new allies, negotiating with the Soviets by offering to fight on their behalf. That was the case with the 103rd Mountain Division, the Detachment of Border Guards, the 7th Heavy Artillery Regiment and the "Gheorghe Matei" Armoured Division. All of them helped the Soviets to force the passes in the Eastern Carpathians through to Transylvania. The "Gheorghe Matei" Armoured Detachement was formed from the remnants of the Romanian 1st Armoured Division which had been almost destroyed prior to 23 August 1944. It had already come to an understanding with the Soviets on 25 August and helped them in the battles to force the Ghimes approaches into Transylvania. The offensive developed between 2 and 11 September, the Detachment being incorporated into the Soviet 24th Corps of the 7th Guards Army, being aided by the 6th Orlov Guards Division. On September 2, the Detachment occupied the locality of Lunca de Sus, enabling it to enter and occupy on September 9 the community of Frumoasa in the Ciuc Mountains. In the period from 20 to 28 September, it was in action between the Niraj and Mures rivers, advancing to the south of Reghin. It was regrouped on September 29 and placed at the disposition of the Romanian 4th Army, thus ending our story. Of the 1058 men originally in the Detachment it suffered 249 losses in dead, wounded and missing. It was the first Romanian unit to enter Northern Transylvania.

Source: http://membres.multimania.fr/dgrecu/Matei.html

Developments of fights in the area are confusing and wondered whether Romanian sources could possibly clarify a bit


This post has been edited by paul panzer on September 05, 2012 02:43 pm
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Dénes
Posted: September 05, 2012 03:14 pm
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This explains why I could not find any mention on these two localities in Rumanian combat reports: because those units you were referring to fought under Soviet command.

By the way, IIRC the first Rumanian army units crossed the Hungarian border in Transylvania on 29 August.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 05, 2012 03:14 pm
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ANDREAS
Posted: September 05, 2012 06:14 pm
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From an old book (written in the communist era) borrowed from the County Library of Arad dedicated to the armoured troops battles after 30 august 1944 I have extracted some informations: the romanian armored detachment established at 27.08.1944 from the remainings of the 1st Armoured Division put under the command of lt.col. Gheorghe Matei, ex-commander of the 1st Tank Regiment of the Division, had over 1000 combat troops and 200 vehicles. From 4/5 until 30 september 1944 the Detachment losses were 8 officers, 6 NCOs, 83 sergeants and soldiers dead, 12 officers, 18 NCOs, 118 sergeants and soldiers wounded, 2 T-IVH tanks and 2 TAs T-IIIG and 5 Resita ATGs destroyed in battle and other 3 T-IVH damaged. Losses caused to the ennemy: around 1800 prisoners, 8 tanks, 3 assault guns, 6 ATGs, 16 trucks and autotractors. I remember that in the book were detailed the combat actions of this detachment in the Szekler area, after crossing the mountains. I will seach for the book in the Library soon!
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Dénes
Posted: September 06, 2012 06:04 am
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That would be very interesting, particularly the tank vs. tank battles.
Did they fight at the epic battle of Turda/Torda? IF they did, did they use Pz.IVs? The Hungarian tankers reported the nasty surprise to face the same Pz.IVs they also used...

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paul panzer
Posted: September 07, 2012 08:43 am
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The Axworthy book does also (very briefly) mention the engagement in the Ghimes valley / pass region, i.e. first half of Sept. This is the bit that I am the most interest in (I can hardly imagine this is not documented in a Romanian book / archive).
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paul panzer
Posted: September 10, 2012 12:37 pm
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I did a bit of (further) bibliographical research:

- (so far unidentified) soviet units showed up in the area of Lunca de Sus on 1st Sept. 44;
- 1st lieut. Ervin BAKOS from (Hungarian) 32nd Frontier Guards Bat. killed in action on that day in the area;
- axis troops counter attacked in the area on 2 Sept. 44 (no details known).

Unfortunately, I have not found any new information regarding Romanian involvement. Thus, my request remains unanswered...

Paul

This post has been edited by paul panzer on September 10, 2012 12:39 pm
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luciang
Posted: September 17, 2012 09:37 am
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The following translations that I made, are taken from the "165 years of Romanian Artillery existence" essay, available on the Internet on http://www.rft.forter.ro/17_bibvirt/pdf/00..._artileriei.pdf
The paragraphs describe actions of the 7th Heavy Artillery Regiment:

extract from page 160:
"The merit of colonel Vasile Danacu and the regiment's staff was that between 25-28 August 1944 they refused to surrender the regiment's armament and fighting material to soviet troops. We hereby quote colonel's Vasile Danacu account, which points out the dignity of their behaviour in that situation:
"In the morning of 24th of August the regiment was set in motion in the general direction of Roznov (...) where it became intercepted by the units of the 7th Soviet Guard Army and challenged to surrender all guns and vehicles, with free passage being granted only to staff and troops. (...) I ordered the whole regiment to take up firing positions on the spot where we've been stopped. One cavalry battalion also took up defensive positions. Then, they proposed that only the ammunition should be surrendered which was also not acceptable. Consequently, we were able to carry on our march".
Afterwards, according to order number 113 from the 28th of August 1944 - when the armistice had been settled, the regiment was attached to the soviet 24 Guard Corps, following Romania's declaration of war against Germany. After being stationed two days in Blagesti and other two days of reorganization, ressuply, the regiment entered the fightings from the Trotus river valley towards Palanca. Starting on the 1st of September 1944, the regiment occupied firing positions at Ghimes-Palanca in support of the 6th Orlovskaia Division, and further on till the gorge's exit."
.....
extract from page 175:
"Between the 28th of August and the 28th of September 1944, the 7th Heavy Artillery Regiment operated under the orders of the soviet 24th Guard Corps, which was part of the soviet 7th Guard Army. In the fightings for opening the Ghimes passage, during the operation Ghimes-Palanca, this regiment distinguished itself by the way in which it supported the soviet 6th infantry division "Orlovskaja". On the 10th of September 1944 the regiment performed an artillery preparation with all batteries against enemy positions around hill 1106, which was closing the gorge completely, for 20 minutes. After this preparation, the soviet 24th Corps started the attack, breaking through enemy positions which were destabilized by the regiment's accurate fire.
Upon entering Ghimes village the regiment's artillery men were met with cheers by soviet infantry men. The regiment received verbal thanks from soviet commanders, who described it's action as astounding. This was the starting point for the artillery men's buzzword "As in Palanca" which was carried on until Czechoslovakia."

Now, if we take a look on the map, we may see that Lunca de Jos is some 5 km further to the west from Ghimes.
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paul panzer
Posted: September 17, 2012 01:10 pm
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Many thans for that. Thus, it seems that, aside from the "Gheorghe Matei" Armoured Detachement, the 7th Heavy Artillery Regiment also took part in the relevant fights in the Ghimes valley.
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Florin
Posted: September 18, 2012 04:13 am
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QUOTE (Dénes @ September 06, 2012 01:04 am)
That would be very interesting, particularly the tank vs. tank battles.
Did they fight at the epic battle of Turda/Torda? IF they did, did they use Pz.IVs? The Hungarian tankers reported the nasty surprise to face the same Pz.IVs they also used...

Gen. Dénes

How many Tiger I obtained the Hungarian army in the autumn of 1944? I read various numbers, between 3 and 25. Where they involved in defensive actions in Transylvania ?
Even considering that it was great to have a Tiger I on your side, I understand that 3 tanks or something in the lower side of that range would not matter too much.

This post has been edited by Florin on September 18, 2012 04:20 am
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aidan zea
Posted: September 19, 2012 01:53 pm
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From what I remember reading (I will return with info very soon) Hungary actually received Tiger I heavy tanks in spring 1944 and only for the 2nd Armd Division who was fighting on the eastern front (somewhere in south western Ukraine if I remember well). No such tanks had been dislocated in Transylvania with the german or hungarian army, I am sure! If I remember well actually all the Tiger I tanks received from Germany were lost during the summer 1944 battles on the eastern front!

This post has been edited by aidan zea on September 19, 2012 01:54 pm
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aidan zea
Posted: September 19, 2012 08:29 pm
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The hungarian 3rd Tank Regiment /2nd Armored Division received in early mai 1944 10 heavy tanks Pz. VI Tiger E, 12 medium tanks Pz. IV H and 10 assault guns StuG. III G as a compensation for the heavy losses in the battles during april 1944 on the eastern front. In august 1944 the 2nd Armored Division 3rd Tank Regiment had only 3 remaining Pz. VI Tiger E operable, who were retreated back in Hungary. When the Regiment was send in Northern Transylvania in early september 1944 he received in Someseni 20 new Pz.IV H and 5 Pz.V Panther A. The regiment used this tanks together with hungarian produced Turan I and II medium tanks in the fightings with romanian forces in the offensive operation started at 05.09.1944. The regiment advanced on the road now known as Drumul judetean 151 from Sarmasel -Sarmasu -Balda -Mihesu de Campie -Zau de Campie -Taureni -Sanger -Ludus and from there after crossing the river Mures he forced the advance towards south in Tarnave plateau, where he was finally stopped by romanian troops. We can assume that the hungarian units from this division were trying to reach the Tarnave river for a strong resistance line but they were stopped before that.

This post has been edited by aidan zea on September 19, 2012 11:01 pm
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