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> Wallachians in Slovakia
21 inf
Posted: July 30, 2012 04:34 pm
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Slovakians claims that wallachians established themselfs masivelly in their teritory in mid Middle Ages, as sheperds and partially due to Turkish attacks, contributing greatly to Slovak ethnogenesis. Here is a wallachian traditionally dance from Slovakia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnYUe1vVDZg (they call wallachians valasski).

Here are some info about wallachians in Slovakia and region
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravian_Wallachia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vala%C5%A1ka
http://www.sazp.sk/parabow/parabow2/forest/wallach.html

I wonder why in Romanian history we didnt learned about this things...
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Imperialist
Posted: July 30, 2012 05:05 pm
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Unfortunately they were ethnic cleansed or assimilated by force. :angry:

I also like folk songs from Vlachs/Wallachians/Romanians in Serbia:

http://youtu.be/t4PD1avRKTI

http://youtu.be/oTnlpBmxH9M
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21 inf
Posted: July 30, 2012 05:28 pm
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As far as I know from discussions with Slovaks, the Wallachians and nowadays Romanians are regarded with high respect and not at all as asimilated, but as ones who contributed to their culture. I even met Slovakians proud that they probably descend from Wallachians, as they said with their own words.
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ANDREAS
Posted: July 30, 2012 07:47 pm
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Thanks 21inf, this is quite a novelty for me!
If on the Balkan Romanians (Vlachs) I have read a book called "Tragedia Romanilor de peste hotare" written by Cristea Sandu Timoc, Editura Astra Romana, Timisoara 1996, on the Slovak Vlachs (Romanians) I read but very little! In the book I mentioned is written that Czech and Slovak historiography calls them "Vlaska etnanin" as romanian origin shepards. It says that some romanian soldiers returning from Czechoslovakia after WWII spoke about shepherds they meet there, who spoke an archaic Romanian language, which they understood quite well! It is written that profesor D. Pop Martian created a sensation in Buciumul magazine nr. 281 from 10/22.09.1876 when announcing the find of aprox. 60.000 romanians in Moravia. At that time were also published other materials in Romania and Austro-Hungaria (Transilvania, Slovakia, Czech territories). President of the asociation Matica Slovanska mr. Josef Markus who visit Timisoara in 1995 declared that the slovaks have inherited from the romanian shapards living there in the middle ages "character strength, volcanic temper and very good occupations for the mountain people"!
An interesting and very good theme for discussion which I appreciate!

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on July 30, 2012 08:08 pm
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21 inf
Posted: July 30, 2012 08:17 pm
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Slovaks says that the wallachians which migrated as sheperds in Slovakia in Middle Ages (in about 16 and 17 century), populated the high mountains in Slovakia, above the line of "foioase" trees, that means above a medium altitude of 650 meters. This drove me to the conclusion that the wallachians who went there were from high mountains of nowaday Romania. What I cant explain is why that particular medieval romanians migrated because of the Turkish attacks, as I dont have knowledge that Turks were able to attack the high mountains (for at least some reasons: rough terrain, little to pillage, scarce population in the mountains).
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Imperialist
Posted: July 30, 2012 08:55 pm
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QUOTE (21 inf @ July 30, 2012 05:28 pm)
As far as I know from discussions with Slovaks, the Wallachians and nowadays Romanians are regarded with high respect and not at all as asimilated, but as ones who contributed to their culture. I even met Slovakians proud that they probably descend from Wallachians, as they said with their own words.

From the Wiki link you posted:

QUOTE
In January 1644, a massive Habsburg raid was conducted against the Valachs in the mountains east of Vsetín, The Habsburg victory was completed by this time with a battle that culminated in the burning of Valach villages (e.g. Hovězí, Huslenky, Halenkov, and Zděchov), disarming of the Valachs, destruction of the fields and livestock, and an estimated 20 percent of the males of Vsetín were killed or later executed. Valachs who fled the area were pursued by the Habsburgs as far as into Hungary. Ultimately, about one third of the total Valach population was killed. With the Conscription of Valašsko on February 16, 1644, a complete registration of the remaining Valachs occurred. Execution or oath of allegiance to Habsburg and conversion to Catholicism were the choices. Many Valachs were executed during the infamous executions of 1644 in Vsetín. By March 1644, essentially all the remaining Valachs who had taken refuge in the high Carpathians had been pursued and killed.
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21 inf
Posted: July 31, 2012 06:13 am
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Doesnt seem to me as a ethnic cleansing, as Wallachians fight against Habsburgs and were not killed based on their ethnicity, but on their rebellion. It could happend to any nationality raising against Habsburgs.

Proof of forced asimilation was not provided.

Some more on the subject of a Wallachia in Slovakia http://www.mestovsetin.cz/EN/vismo/dokumen...5&id=1001&p1=60

This post has been edited by 21 inf on July 31, 2012 09:11 am
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Imperialist
Posted: July 31, 2012 10:40 am
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QUOTE (21 inf @ July 31, 2012 06:13 am)
Doesnt seem to me as a ethnic cleansing, as Wallachians fight against Habsburgs and were not killed based on their ethnicity, but on their rebellion. It could happend to any nationality raising against Habsburgs.

Proof of forced asimilation was not provided.

Some more on the subject of a Wallachia in Slovakia http://www.mestovsetin.cz/EN/vismo/dokumen...5&id=1001&p1=60

So how many Vlachs are there in Slovakia today if they weren't ethnic cleansed or assimilated?
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JiriTintera
Posted: July 31, 2012 12:57 pm
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Dear Sirs,
Carpathian origin of Moravian Wallachia disappeared during the Thirty Years War, as most "ethnically indigenous Wallachians" fell in the battles against Habsburg troops. From the ethnic point of view it was a Ruthenian-Romanian population. In the original written records is called: Coloni Valach seu Ruthéni (Wallachians i.e. Ruthenians).

Depopulated the Earth Czech crown was re-colonized by non-Wallachian population.

P. S.
City Vsetin not in Slovak Republic, but in Moravia!

In the Czech language, the term "valach" also refers gelding horse.

Sorry, but I do not know English, so I used an electronic translator.

Source
http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vala%C5%A1sko - only in Czech language
http://kcjl.upol.cz/dialektologie/kap3_nareci_morava.pdf - only in Czech language
http://www.hromada.webz.cz/valassko.htm - only in Czech language

This post has been edited by JiriTintera on August 01, 2012 08:36 am
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ANDREAS
Posted: July 31, 2012 09:27 pm
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QUOTE
Dear Sirs,
Carpathian origin of Moravian Wallachia disappeared during the Thirty Years War, as most "ethnically indigenous Wallachians" fell in the battles against Habsburg troops. From the ethnic point of view it was a Ruthenian-Romanian population. In the original written records is called: Coloni Valach seu Ruthéni (Wallachians i.e. Ruthenians).
Depopulated the Earth Czech crown was re-colonized by non-Wallachian population.

JiriTintera, without having studied the issue in detail I think we can not exclude the possibility that some Wallachian survived in some less accessible areas from Vsetín (at least looking at the map the Vsetin area looks rugged and not very accessible) and they have continued to influence somehow the local population (as they are mentioned and remembered even in XX century) until recently! I believe they can be a connection between the czech and romanian nations and help us all to better know our past!
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JiriTintera
Posted: August 01, 2012 09:13 am
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Dear Andreas,
Moravia is reportedly taking off the old research Wallachian families can provide more information Radim Vašut (radim.vasut@upol.cz).

P. S.
My surname - Tintěra - in the Wallachian dialect means "little woman", and at the opposite end of the Czech Republic of South Bohemia, to label this puppets, or small people.

P. P. S.
Transilvanian Wallach: Matthias I. Hunyadi was king of Hungary and son in law of Czech King George of Podebrady.

Reference
http://genealogy.vasut.eu/genealogy/zpravo...alasskerody.pdf
http://genebaze.cz/gap.html

This post has been edited by JiriTintera on August 01, 2012 09:15 am
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21 inf
Posted: August 01, 2012 10:29 am
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I looked at the words linked with sheperds in slovakian and they are of Romanian origin.
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Dénes
Posted: August 02, 2012 08:21 am
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Vlachs were not necessarily Rumanians. Most were, but not all.
Vlachs and Wallachians are also not necessarily identical.

For the definition of Vlach, see Encyclopedia Britannica:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/631511/Vlach

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on August 02, 2012 08:25 am
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21 inf
Posted: August 02, 2012 04:23 pm
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Well, I readed what it is said at the above posted link and I say we have to forgive the author for what he wrote there. First of all, Vlah and Wallach is the same, depend on what language one speaks. Second, it is an exonim, which I am surprised that the author didnt mentioned. Anyway, there are no references for what is stated on that site, so it might be as well be written when the author was sitting in front of a cold beer.

I am surprised to see that author sustain the theory of romanian ethnogenesis south of Danube and resettlement back north of it, when all the proofs are that the romanian element stayed in the aproximative area of what is now Romania. But the "grădina Domnului" is big...

The proofs of continuity are too much to be reminded here and anyway, the subject here is wallachians in Slovakia.

Anyway, not even today, a part of aromâni, machedoni, even from Romania, or vlahs from Serbia, doesnt like to be called "Romanians". After all, is their own choice and if they want to isolate themselfs, is their problem. If they are so limited that they didnt figured out that one can call himself moldovean, dobrogean, ardelean, moţ, oşean, momârlan and still be romanian, is their problem.

This post has been edited by 21 inf on August 03, 2012 05:10 am
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ANDREAS
Posted: August 02, 2012 06:46 pm
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In this case of the Romanians (Wallachians) from Moravia and Slovakia the definition (so wrong as Encyclopedia Britannica understand it) which is given to Vlachs is inapplicable anyway! I say this because from direct references found on the Web (czech sites who must know the situation better than the British author) and from the book I quoted, the link between Vlachs and Romanians is direct and out of any doubt!
In the same book I found another page dedicated to Romanians from Moravia where it is said that there were several groups -an older one mentioned in several sources from XII century as Vlachs over who will come later the "Potpolianii" or "Getvancii" -mountain people came from Wallachia. In Slovakia the popular tradition knows them as wallachs who dealt with shepherding but also outlawry, and they were terrible in battles. In Moravia the popular tradition knows them as shepherds and are even now kept in memory by some tools hatchet: hatchet, sheep hair clippers cutters, a.o. and also dances and popular costumes! (translation in the book quoted)
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