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> Romanian involvement in the Battle of Kursk
Florin
Posted: January 03, 2005 06:32 am
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QUOTE (Victor @ Dec 29 2003, 03:12 PM)
As a matter of fact Hungarian Bf-109Gs from the Puma took part in the fighting.

The following comment...

What then comes as a surprise is the extent to which both sides used
obsolescent equipment and that the Germans suffered from
insufficient logistical support. Glantz and House maintain that the
Luftwaffe's Sixth Air Fleet, tasked with supporting the attack in
the north, was equipped with three groups of aging JU-87 Stuka
dive-bombers among its 730 combat aircraft and "generally received
only two-thirds of its required levels of aviation fuel...." (p.54).
The Fourth Air Fleet, supporting the attack in the south, had 1,100
aircraft, including Hungarian assets, and "seven groups of...Stukas had to provide the bulk of close air support in an increasingly
hostile air defense environment" .

...is from a review of the book "The Battle of Kursk", by David M. Glantz and Jonathan M. House.

The review can be accessed on
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/reviewsw52.htm

This post has been edited by Florin on January 03, 2005 06:34 am
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Imperialist
Posted: January 08, 2011 11:21 am
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History Channel aired a documentary on Kursk today and in it they say that a Russian patrol captured a young Romanian recruit the night before the German offensive and he told them the hour the Germans planned to attack early in the morning. :blink:
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21 inf
Posted: January 08, 2011 11:35 am
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QUOTE (Imperialist @ January 08, 2011 01:21 pm)
History Channel aired a documentary on Kursk today and in it they say that a Russian patrol captured a young Romanian recruit the night before the German offensive and he told them the hour the Germans planned to attack early in the morning. :blink:

Yeah, sure he knew all! :lol:
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MMM
  Posted: January 08, 2011 02:19 pm
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And History Channel are the guards of the "absolute truth", of the "ultimate knowledge", aren't they? :P
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Alexei2102
Posted: January 08, 2011 07:25 pm
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QUOTE (Imperialist @ January 08, 2011 11:21 am)
History Channel aired a documentary on Kursk today and in it they say that a Russian patrol captured a young Romanian recruit the night before the German offensive and he told them the hour the Germans planned to attack early in the morning. :blink:

Perhaps it was a young German soldier (a Romanian Volksdeutche) who was captured, and he claimed to be a Romanian national in order to receive a better treatment as a POW...????

What do you think about this idea ?

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21 inf
Posted: January 08, 2011 08:25 pm
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Or maybe he was a romanian 100%, making his 100 days frontline period as young junior oficer in german military schools.
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MMM
Posted: January 09, 2011 08:33 am
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QUOTE (Alexei2102 @ January 08, 2011 10:25 pm)

Perhaps it was a young German soldier (a Romanian Volksdeutche) who was captured, and he claimed to be a Romanian national in order to receive a better treatment as a POW...????

What do you think about this idea ?

But the Soviet interrogators wouldn't have made the difference between the Romanian and German uniforms? :o
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Alexei2102
Posted: January 09, 2011 11:51 am
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QUOTE (MMM @ January 09, 2011 08:33 am)
QUOTE (Alexei2102 @ January 08, 2011 10:25 pm)

Perhaps it was a young German soldier (a Romanian Volksdeutche) who was captured, and he claimed to be a Romanian national in order to receive a better treatment as a POW...????

What do you think about this idea ?

But the Soviet interrogators wouldn't have made the difference between the Romanian and German uniforms? :o

Of course they would, that is a rhetorical question... But I heard stories about POW (German ones) that claimed to be foreign nationals (French, Dutch, etc), drafted by force into the Wehrmacht.... That would be one such case IMO.
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MMM
Posted: January 09, 2011 12:06 pm
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That may be, as well; I still have my money on a simple error of the documentary's authors... (Usually the simplest explanation is also the real one!)

This post has been edited by MMM on January 28, 2011 02:03 pm
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Imperialist
Posted: December 07, 2011 07:35 pm
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Just as a type this the History Channel is broadcasting a Russian-made documentary about the Eastern Front.

This evening's subject: Battle of Kursk.

This time however the Russians don't capture a Romanian recruit, but a German engineer. :roll:

More interesting claims: the Soviets learn the details of the German plan from a source that remains unknown to this day, apparently a member of the OKW.

They also get hold of a German map (how, from whom?) showing the Soviet positions as seen from German aerial recon. Many Soviet units are then ordered to change their positions.

According to Russian source on the web, Stalin knew about the German plan as early as March 27:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk#Soviet_plans

The more you read the more you find these amazing feats that the Allies made on both "fronts" (German and Japanese). The Germans and Japanese seem to be non-existant intelligence-wise. They can't even protect their data, let alone score intelligence coups against the Allies.
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PaulC
Posted: April 19, 2012 05:06 pm
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QUOTE (Imperialist @ December 07, 2011 07:35 pm)
Just as a type this the History Channel is broadcasting a Russian-made documentary about the Eastern Front.

This evening's subject: Battle of Kursk.

This time however the Russians don't capture a Romanian recruit, but a German engineer. :roll:

More interesting claims: the Soviets learn the details of the German plan from a source that remains unknown to this day, apparently a member of the OKW.

They also get hold of a German map (how, from whom?) showing the Soviet positions as seen from German aerial recon. Many Soviet units are then ordered to change their positions.

According to Russian source on the web, Stalin knew about the German plan as early as March 27:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk#Soviet_plans

The more you read the more you find these amazing feats that the Allies made on both "fronts" (German and Japanese). The Germans and Japanese seem to be non-existant intelligence-wise. They can't even protect their data, let alone score intelligence coups against the Allies.

The German and the Japanese were non-existant intelligence wise, yes. The allies read more or less all their codes.

The Enigma was broken by the Poles first and then repeatedly by Bletchley Park. For most of the war, the English were reading German traffic with a few days delay. Luftwaffe and army was the easiest to break since the operators were negligent ( should have been shot for this ) by using the same coding formats for multiple messages. No matter how many upgrades Enigma and derivates received, lack of discipline meant they were broken fairly easily.

The Japanese were in a similar situation and the easiest way to crack their codes was due to the hilarious habit they had to use certain formal salutes every time ( a cultural issue ). Whenever center A wrote to center B, let's say Yamamoto's HQ, they used a certain salute. Even when the code was changed, it was quickly deciphered since the Americans rightfully assumed the beginning is the formal salute.

The Italians, call me amazed, were the only ones who had more or less secure communications. Cape Matapan happened because of an intelligence failure and the Italians made sure they won't repeat the mistake again. For the rest of the war, the allies couldn't read Italian traffic. But it didn't really matter since they read German one and the info leaked.

As for the Russian mole in OKW; that's the alleged Lucy ring from Switzerland. GRU operatives there were contacted by an alleged german who wished to pass information from the highest command of the OKW. In reality, it was the british that not wanting to let the russians know about Ultra, passed on German info to the soviets under the cover of the Lucy ring.

This post has been edited by PaulC on April 19, 2012 05:31 pm
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Petre
Posted: January 23, 2016 06:16 pm
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I remember a TV show (romanian). A discussion with general Constantin Olteanu.
An old man calls. He wants to say Hallo to general. Gen. Olteanu recognizes that person and afther that he states the old man was his tank teacher at Mil. Academy, a war veteran who fought at Prokhorovka.
I hope I remember it well.
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Storm
Posted: January 26, 2016 12:04 pm
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QUOTE (Imperialist @ January 08, 2011 11:21 am)
History Channel aired a documentary on Kursk today and in it they say that a Russian patrol captured a young Romanian recruit the night before the German offensive and he told them the hour the Germans planned to attack early in the morning. :blink:

You should note that multiple defensive strips and lines were layered over a depth of hundred of km, 300km or more. It is hard to believe that you can surprise such a "fortress".
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Alanmccoubrey
Posted: January 29, 2016 04:28 pm
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QUOTE (Florin @ December 30, 2003 01:59 am)
QUOTE
No.
PS: As a matter of fact Hungarian Bf-109Gs from the Puma took part in the fighting.


Should I understand that Puma was the name of a Hungarian aerial squadron?

The only other "Puma" I know to be related to World War II was the nickname of a four wheeled light German vehicle.

Florin

A German PUMA would have been the SdKfz 234/2 which had 8 wheels.
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