Romanian Military History Forum - Part of Romanian Army in the Second World War Website



Pages: (2) 1 [2]   ( Go to first unread post ) Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

> Vasile Lupu- a man of changings
Valium
Posted: April 25, 2011 04:13 pm
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 45
Member No.: 3047
Joined: April 13, 2011



QUOTE (Dénes @ April 22, 2011 01:16 pm)
As it was highlighted repeatedly, the notions of "nationality" and "ethnicity" were "invented" at the time of the French Revolution of 1789-1799. Better said, these notions became important only from the XIXth Century on, particularly starting with the revolutions that swept Europe in the mid-XIXth Century.

I agree it was over rated as importance in romanian historiography- it is something natural in every national historiography. But to deny any older national conscience is also an extremist point of view, and serve anything else than true sake. It is sure both Michael the Brave and Vasile Lupu were power thirsty, but they used for this the romanian nationa ideea, and we don't know how much they realy believed these ideeas. It was nothing about any orthodox state they aimed, but sources refere to romanian inhabited lands
PMEmail Poster
Top
Dénes
Posted: April 26, 2011 02:42 pm
Quote Post


Host
Group Icon

Group: Hosts
Posts: 4347
Member No.: 4
Joined: June 17, 2003



QUOTE (Valium @ April 25, 2011 10:13 pm)
But to deny any older national conscience is also an extremist point of view, and serve anything else than true sake. It is sure both Michael the Brave and Vasile Lupu were power thirsty, but they used for this the romanian nationa ideea...

Denial is a natural (first) reaction when one hears something totally new that is opposite to what he/she was taught by then, all along. Others (also members in this forum) go even further, and readily jump to accusation of extremism, revisionism, bias, etc., and focus on personal attacks, instead of weighing the merit of the original sentence.

The idea of "unification" (or even better "reunification") of the "three Rumanian lands" si deeply entrenched in the recent Rumanian historiography. Therefore, it is hard to convince people even to consider the idea that e.g., Vasile Lupu, or Michael the Brave, did not (could not) consider this "unification", because the idea of nationhood or ethnic nation simply did not exist back then. Same goes for Hungary, or Bulgaria, etc. - before anyone would start labelling me extremist, biased, etc.

As stated, the first time this whole current concept of ethnic nation (we are wrongly using in hindsight for events far back in history) was seriously considered was in the late XVIIIth/early XIXth Century, and started in ernest during the 1848/1849 Revolution that swept across most of Europe.

See the works of Lucian Boia, for example. He is also facing the same reaction from some 'old-school' fellow historians for his myth-busting ideas.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 26, 2011 08:27 pm
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
21 inf
Posted: April 26, 2011 05:00 pm
Quote Post


General de corp de armata
*

Group: Retired
Posts: 1512
Member No.: 1232
Joined: January 05, 2007



A custom union (uniune vamală) existed between Moldavia and Muntenia since 1842. How many people know today that at the 3/15 May 1848, at the Marea Adunare Naţională de la Blaj, between other romanian transilvanian, moldavian and wallachian revolutionaries, was Alexandru Ioan Cuza in person? Isn't it an "odd" coincidence that he will be, only 10 years after 1848/1849 revolution in Transylvania, the first ruler of what will be Principatele Unite, the precursor of Romania (Vechiul Regat)? If the 1848 generation had the idea of union, the idea must be older, at least 1 or 2 generations, this will make 25 or 50 years earlier, at least.
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Valium
Posted: April 26, 2011 05:54 pm
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 45
Member No.: 3047
Joined: April 13, 2011



QUOTE (Dénes @ April 26, 2011 05:42 pm)
QUOTE (Valium @ April 25, 2011 10:13 pm)
But to deny any older national conscience is also an extremist point of view, and serve anything else than true sake. It is sure both Michael the Brave and Vasile Lupu were power thirsty, but they used for this the romanian nationa ideea...

Denial is a natural (first) reaction when one hears something totally new that is opposite to what he/she was taught by then, all along. Others (also members in this forum) go even further, and readily jump to accusation of extremism, revisionism, bias, etc., and focus on personal attacks, instead of weighing the merit of the original sentence.

The idea of "unification" (or even better "reunification") of the "three Rumanian lands" si deeply entrenched in the recent Rumanian historiography. Therefore, it is hard to convince people even to consider the idea that e.g., Vasile Lupu, or Michael the Brave, did not (could not) consider this "unification", because the idea of nationhood or ethnicity simply did not exist back then. Same goes for Hungary, or Bulgaria, etc. - before anyone would start labelling me extremist, biased, etc.

As stated, the first time this whole current concept of ethnic nation/ethicity (we are using in hindsight to events far back in history) was seriously considered was in the late XVIIIth/early XIXth Century, and started in ernest during the 1848/1849 Revolution that swept across most of Europe.

See the works of Lucian Boia, for example. He is also facing the same reaction from some 'old-school' fellow historians for his myth-busting ideas.

Gen. Dénes

Now you deny the notion of ethnicity didn't exist before? Absolutely wrong! I could understand hungarian point of view, I could understand romanian overrated point of view(in the balkans, including Hungary, romanian historiography is the less extremist). I disagree with both.
Romanians were absolutely conscious about their ethnicity long before 19 century, because is logical so, and there are indirect sources, including ones from Vasile Lupu.

This post has been edited by Valium on April 26, 2011 05:55 pm
PMEmail Poster
Top
Imperialist
Posted: April 26, 2011 07:40 pm
Quote Post


General de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2399
Member No.: 499
Joined: February 09, 2005



QUOTE (Dénes @ April 26, 2011 02:42 pm)
The idea of "unification" (or even better "reunification") of the "three Rumanian lands" si deeply entrenched in the recent Rumanian historiography. Therefore, it is hard to convince people even to consider the idea that e.g., Vasile Lupu, or Michael the Brave, did not (could not) consider this "unification", because the idea of nationhood or ethnicity simply did not exist back then. Same goes for Hungary, or Bulgaria, etc. - before anyone would start labelling me extremist, biased, etc.

As stated, the first time this whole current concept of ethnic nation/ethicity (we are using in hindsight to events far back in history) was seriously considered was in the late XVIIIth/early XIXth Century, and started in ernest during the 1848/1849 Revolution that swept across most of Europe.


Simply did not exist or was not seriously considered? Which is which.

This post has been edited by Imperialist on April 26, 2011 07:42 pm
PM
Top
Dénes
Posted: April 26, 2011 08:02 pm
Quote Post


Host
Group Icon

Group: Hosts
Posts: 4347
Member No.: 4
Joined: June 17, 2003



I have to refine what I wrote to correct the mishap Imp. correctly pointed out: the first notion is valid, namely "the idea of nationhood or ethnicity [better say, by quoting Hitchins "the modern idea of ethnic nation"] simply did not exist back then... the first time this whole current concept of ethnic nation (we are wrongly using in hindsight for events far back in history) was born in the late XVIIIth/early XIXth Century, and started to be used in ernest during the 1848/1849 Revolution that swept across most of Europe".
I hope I made my point clearer.

Please, by all means, look for the definition and origins of '(ethnic) nation' in a serious English reference souce and share your findings here (or in a separate thread), to everyone's benefit.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on April 26, 2011 08:28 pm
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

Topic Options Pages: (2) 1 [2]  Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

 






[ Script Execution time: 0.0257 ]   [ 14 queries used ]   [ GZIP Enabled ]