Romanian Military History Forum - Part of Romanian Army in the Second World War Website



  Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

> 2nd Mountain Division in Gisel rescue op., who really helped the encircled germans?
ANDREAS
Posted: February 27, 2011 04:49 pm
Quote Post


Locotenent colonel
*

Group: Members
Posts: 814
Member No.: 2421
Joined: March 15, 2009



QUOTE
To mark the October Revolution (7 November) the Soviet forces launched a counter-offensive and managed to intercept Axis communications on the Nalchik-Beslan-Ordyonikidze and Nalchik-Alagir-Ordyonikidze roads. Thus a part of the 3rd Panzer Corps fighting Ordyonikidze was encircled. The 2nd Mountain Division attacked the latter road near Mairamadag on 12 November re-establishing a link with the German armored forces, which retreated during the following night. The Romanian troops remained on defensive positions after that. Between 20-25 November, the Soviets tried to brake through the lines of the 2nd Mountain Division, but we repulsed time and time again. -The 3rd Army in the Caucasus - 1942, WorldWar2.ro


Because I recently read about the battle of Gisel (near Vladikavkaz) in november 1942 where the 13 and 23. Panzer Divisions had been badly hit (lost 2/3 or their armor) by the soviet forces, leading to the halt of german offensive in North Caucasus, and the rescue operations conducted by 2nd Mountain Division (WorldWar2.ro) of SS-Division Wiking (source -Krieg der Panzer 1939-1945 -Janusz Piekalkiewicz pg.189) I wonder which one is closer to the truth, or better, are they both true?
Waiting for your answer!
PMEmail PosterYahoo
Top
ANDREAS
Posted: February 27, 2011 05:03 pm
Quote Post


Locotenent colonel
*

Group: Members
Posts: 814
Member No.: 2421
Joined: March 15, 2009



Because my english is too often hard to understand, I repeat my question : was the romanian contribution really important in this battle, or the decisive one was that of the german SS Division "Wiking"? The Axis forces mentioned as remaining in the area in end november-early december 1942 were the german 3. Panzer Division, 111, 50 and 370 Infantry Divisions, 13 Panzer Division, SS PzGren Division "Wiking" and the romanian 2nd Mountain Division.
PMEmail PosterYahoo
Top
aidan zea
Posted: September 07, 2012 08:34 pm
Quote Post


Caporal
*

Group: Members
Posts: 102
Member No.: 3341
Joined: July 04, 2012



QUOTE
The Nalchik - Ordzhonikidze Operation 25th October - 30th November

By the middle of October, with offensive operations in the Terek bend making no real progress, a renewed attempt was made to advance along the mountain passes towards Ordzhonikidze, and force the capture of Nalchik. The attack would be implemented in two phases, a direct attack against Nalchik, followed by an attack against its eastern flank in an effort to circumvent the city.
Attack Group west, formed by the 2nd Romanian Mountain and elements of the German 1st Mountain Division, would mount a frontal attack, while elements of the 13th and 23rd Panzer Divisions would open the flank attack a day later.
The attack opened on the 25th of October, heavily supported by Luftwaffe ground attack aircraft, in the Baksan area. The initial attack, mounted by the Romanian 2nd Mountain Division, progressed well. The villages Kysburun, Kishpek and Chengem were captured.
The following day, Attack Group East broke out of its bridgeheads on the Upper Terek River at Kotliarevskaia, Maiskii and Prishibskaia.
Elements of the 23rd Panzer Division captured Argudan, breaking through the defences of the 151st Rifle Division and severing the Nalchik-Ordzhonikidze road. The 23rd Panzer Division then became involved in heavy fighting with the 257th Rifle Division near the village of Osrek, but the following day managed to capture Aleksandrovskaya.
The 13th Panzer Division forced a crossing of the Cherek River, and then advanced towards Urban, capturing Staryi Cherek and Pygansu. Later that day, elements of the 2nd Romanian Mountain Division attacked the boundary between the 392nd and 295th Rifle Divisions at Baksanenek. The attack progressed well and reached Chegem on the Chegem River. The attack continued and elements of the 2nd Romanian Mountain Division broke into the northern suburbs of Nalchik.
An abortive counter attack was launched by the 2nd Guards Rifle Division in the area of Dokshukino in an attempt to halt the Romanian advance.
On the 27th of October, the flank attack continued to make good progress, with the 23rd Panzer Division capturing Stariy Urukh and the 13th Panzer Division continuing to compress the pocket now being formed around Nalchik.
On the 28th, the garrison at Nalchik surrendered. The pursuit by the 13th and 23rd Panzer Divisions continued on to the 30th, reaching the Urukh River between Chikola and Urukh.
On the 31st, the 52nd Tank Brigade launched repeated counter attacks against the 23rd Panzer Division, halting its advance 10km east of the Urukh River. This saw the start of two days of heavy fighting as the 13th and 23rd Panzer Divisions attempted to encircle and destroy elements of the 275th, 59th and 164th Rifle Divisions and the 52nd Tank Brigade around Digora and Ardon. These Divisions managed to escape encirclement and withdrew into new defensive positions between Alagir and Kirovo, along the Ardon River.
By the 1st of November, elements of the 13th Panzer Division had established a crossing over the Fiagdon River, and the following day broke out of the bridgehead and captured Gisel. The 23rd Panzer Division had also made good progress and captured Khataldon.
Meanwhile, the Russians had begun to reinforce their defences to the west of Ordzhonikidze, bolstering them with the 2nd and 5th Guards Tank Brigades.
On the 3rd of November the attack against the strategically important city of Ordzhonikidze began. Elements of the 13th Panzer Division were involved in heavy fighting in an attempt to break through the defensive belt, which lay to the west of the town in the area of Fiang Don and Dzuarikau.
Several counter attacks by elements of the 10th and 11th Rifle Corps, against the northern flank and supply route of the 13th Panzer Division, required elements of the 23rd Panzer Division to be redeployed to secure the breaches. The Russian garrison at Ordzhonikidze was repeatedly reinforced and considerable support was provided by ground attack aircraft of the Red Air Force.
On the 6th of November, Russians forces opened a counter attack in the Ordzhonikidze area. The 10th Guards, 57th Rifle and 5th Guards and 63rd Tank Brigades attacked at dawn from the Fiang Don region towards Dzaurikau. Elements of the 23rd Panzer Division were forced to withdraw towards Dzaurikau and elements of the 13th Panzer Division were encircled near Gizel. The 34th Rifle Brigade set up blocking positions at Mairamadag to prevent the trapped elements of the 13th Panzer Division escaping.
In conjunction, the 4th Guards Rifle and 52nd and 2nd Tank Brigades attacked at midday towards Gizel. This attack faltered in the face of counter attacks by the 23rd Panzer Division.
On the 8th of November, elements of the Romanian 2nd Mountain Division, supported by elements of the 23rd Panzer Division, attacked the 34th Rifle Brigade in an attempt to open an escape corridor for the trapped forces.
On the 10th of November, elements of the Wiking motorized Division joined the relief attempt. On the 11th of November, a small escape corridor was opened and the bulk of the trapped elements of the 13th Panzer Division managed to escape, but lost most of its tanks, vehicles and heavy weapons.
The staunch defense of Ordzhonikidze, by elements of the Russian 10th Guards and 34th Rifle Corps, halted all further offensive action by Army Group A and ended any chances of German forces capturing the vital oilfields further south.
By the 12th of November, the Russian forces around Ordzhonikidze had gone over to the offensive and were pursuing the 13th Panzer Division through the Suarskoe Pass towards Fiang Don.
On the 13th of November, the entire Russian 9th Army went over to the offensive. Its 10th Guards and 3rd Rifle Corps, supported by the 2nd, 15th, and 52nd Tank Brigades attacked the 23rd Panzer Divisions defensive positions along the Fiang Don River.
On the 14th, the 11th Guards Rifle Corps, supported by the 5th Guards and 63rd Tank Brigades, attacked the remnants of the 13th Panzer Division in the Ardon Region.
On the 17th of November, elements of the 10th Guards Rifle Corps forced a breach in the defences of the 13th Panzer Division near Rasvet. The breach was contained by elements of the SS Wiking Division.
On the 27th of November, the Russian 9th Army concentrated its ongoing attack along the Digora axis, against German forces occupying a salient between the Urukh and Fiang Don Rivers. The attacks were all mounted across the Fiang Don River along the following axis. The 275th, 389th and 319th Rifle Divisions and the 9th Rifle and 140th and 52nd Tank Brigades, attacked towards Ardon and Digora. The 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th Rifle and 15th and 207th Tank Brigades attacked towards Kadgoron. The 10th Guards, 34th, 57th and 62nd Rifle and 5th Guards and 63rd Tank Brigades advanced in the direction of Nogkai.
Despite three days of heavy fighting, the attacks failed to penetrate the 3rd Panzer Corps defences along the Fiang Don River and were halted on the 30th of November.

I found this material on the Internet in this website:
http://www.theeasternfront.co.uk/battles/battlescaucasus.htm
PMEmail Poster
Top
ionionescu
Posted: September 10, 2012 09:22 am
Quote Post


Plutonier major
*

Group: Members
Posts: 345
Member No.: 2794
Joined: April 26, 2010



QUOTE (ANDREAS @ February 27, 2011 06:03 pm)
Because my english is too often hard to understand, I repeat my question : was the romanian contribution really important in this battle, or the decisive one was that of the german SS Division "Wiking"?

Both German and Romanian counter attacks were important in their relief attempt, maybe elements of SS Division ”Viking” helped 23. Panzer Division in their successful counterattack to the North in the afternoon of 10 November, because in his memoirs ”Divizia de Cremene” general Ion Dumitrache doesn't mention any help in the romanian 4th Mountain Group (7th and 8th Mountain Battalions) successful counterattack to the South-East.

(IMG:http://s6.postimage.org/aqlss6lhd/P1105_10_09_12.jpg)
free image hosting
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
ANDREAS
Posted: September 14, 2012 11:28 pm
Quote Post


Locotenent colonel
*

Group: Members
Posts: 814
Member No.: 2421
Joined: March 15, 2009



Thank you very much ionionescu! Your help is greatly appreciated!
PMEmail PosterYahoo
Top
Florin
Posted: September 15, 2012 02:02 am
Quote Post


General de corp de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1867
Member No.: 17
Joined: June 22, 2003



If the German-Romanian attack would reach the oil fields and the refineries, they would find just scorched earth and destroyed industrial equipment. I cannot estimate how long it would take to make those oil refineries working again.
There was an engineer overseeing all mining operations. Stalin called him in his office, and after inviting him to sit down and asking him if he want to smoke or to drink, Stalin said: "If you'll blow up the equipment too early, I will shoot you. If they will capture the equipment intact, I will also shoot you." Giving interviews after 1990's, the engineer (now an old man) mentioned that he did not blame Stalin for that, because he would do the same in his place.

P.S.: In the fights taking place in the area around Caucasus Mountains, alongside the Germans and Romanians were also some Slovaks and Italians. There were some separate units of Austrians, but I consider them as German troops.
The Austrians planted the swastika flag on Elbrus peak on August 23, 1942 (I am not 100% sure about day). It was an unofficial (not ordered) action, so Hitler was a bit surprised and not quite pleased when he heard about it.

P.P.S: My grandfather was in the 15th Mountain Battalion - I see in the photocopy shown above that they behaved very well...

This post has been edited by Florin on September 15, 2012 02:16 am
PM
Top
ANDREAS
Posted: September 15, 2012 12:32 pm
Quote Post


Locotenent colonel
*

Group: Members
Posts: 814
Member No.: 2421
Joined: March 15, 2009



QUOTE
The Austrians planted the swastika flag on Elbrus peak on August 23, 1942 (I am not 100% sure about day). It was an unofficial (not ordered) action, so Hitler was a bit surprised and not quite pleased when he heard about it.

Florin, in order to be honest Hitler had no reason to be pleased by this action (the conquest of Elbrus peak) as long as German offensive objectives in the Caucasus were the oil fields near Baku! It's a prestigious action for the german (austrian) gebirgsjagers which doesn't be made instead of reaching the planned objectives! No doubt it's also Hitler's fault as long as he has set the objectives to achieve disregarding the means (troops, combat equipment, a.o.) at his disposal!
PMEmail PosterYahoo
Top
contras
Posted: September 19, 2012 06:38 pm
Quote Post


Maior
*

Group: Members
Posts: 730
Member No.: 2693
Joined: December 28, 2009



QUOTE
Florin, in order to be honest Hitler had no reason to be pleased by this action (the conquest of Elbrus peak) as long as German offensive objectives in the Caucasus were the oil fields near Baku! It's a prestigious action for the german (austrian) gebirgsjagers which doesn't be made instead of reaching the planned objectives! No doubt it's also Hitler's fault as long as he has set the objectives to achieve disregarding the means (troops, combat equipment, a.o.) at his disposal!


True, the conquest of Elbrus peak was no doubt just a propagandistic move!
PMEmail Poster
Top
contras
Posted: September 24, 2012 08:22 am
Quote Post


Maior
*

Group: Members
Posts: 730
Member No.: 2693
Joined: December 28, 2009



QUOTE
Because my english is too often hard to understand, I repeat my question : was the romanian contribution really important in this battle, or the decisive one was that of the german SS Division "Wiking"?


Dumitru Teodorescu, then commander of 1st Company from 7 Bat, 2nd Romanian Mountain Division mentioned in his memories (Memorii de război, editura Rasunetul, Bistrita, 1997) that Bat 7 rescued German units who were surrounded. His company crossed some marshes and the river Ardan on ice to outflank the enemy, the rest of battalion advanced on road (12 november). The Soviets were totally surprised and retreated to Mairamadag, Romanian Mountain troops reached and fixed the enemy, and during the night German armoured troops retreated by the gap created into Soviet positions. Teodorescu mentioned that Germans waved their hands to Romanians, thanked them for their resue.
PMEmail Poster
Top
Petre
Posted: September 01, 2016 07:37 am
Quote Post


Capitan
*

Group: Members
Posts: 697
Member No.: 2434
Joined: March 24, 2009



Source, rus. Net :
Documents from Rus. UFSB Archive, reflecting real events related to the german offensive in Northen Caucasus, autumn 1942 and their attempts to conquer the North Ossetian capital Ordzhonikidze (Dzaudzhikau / Vladikavkaz).

În urma luptelor din 7 nov în raionul de la sud-vest Ghizel a fost izolată şi blocată o grupare germană de 4 mii soldaţi şi ofiţeri şi cca. 150 tancuri. Cercetarea a confirmat că în sprijinul grupării blocate în raionul Ghizel vine o divizie română. În ziua de 7 nov 1942 aviaţia germană cu 15 bombardiere a bombardat fără succes unităţile noastre care atacă. Din noiembrie aviaţia germană a executat raiduri masive asupra raionului staţiei Beslan.

... la 11 nov în satul Rassvet a fost încartiruit un batalion de infanterie inamic, cu echipament de iarnă. La periferia vestică au fost amplasate 20 tancuri grele, cca. 20 tunuri calibre diferite şi 30-40 maşini. La 12 nov în satul Cikola se aflau 7 tancuri mijlocii, câteva aruncătoare sextuple şi cca două batalioane de infanterie. În satul Haznidon staţionau două batalioane române, în satul Surh-Digora un escadron de cavalerie.

... la 12 nov în satul Kodahdjin a venit un batalion român în sprijin, care are două tancuri uşoare şi câteva aruncătoare. Tancurile s-au strâns în mijlocul satului.
... la est sat Kodahdjin a fost observată linia de apărare a trupelor române, care ţine de la pantele muntelui la şoseaua spre Alaghir. La vest de sat, la cca. 300 m este o baterie, care execută foc spre satul Mairamadag. La marginea de vest sat Kodahdjin observate 5 tancuri.
În cursul 16-17 nov. cercetarea noastră şi a armatei au stabilit următoarele : în satele Rassvet, Kodahdjin, Dzuarikau, Hataldon se apără Div. 2 română vânători de munte, care pentru perioada luptelor are pierderi până la 50% efective.
Satele Nogkau, Sudag, Salugardan şi oraşul Alaghir le apărp Divizia 1 munte bavareză, care dispune de 30 tancuri. Satele Ardon şi Kadgaron le apără Reg.128 moto, Batal.78 moto, Batal.23 motociclişti şi cca. 50 tancuri din Div.23 Panzer.
Din aceleaşi date, rămăşiţele grupării inamice de la Ghizel s-au unit cu Div. 2 rom. VM şi cu gruparea Arhonskaia. Gruparea înfiinţată are ca misiune să rupă apărarea noastră în raionul staţiei Arhonskaia şi o ofensivă asupra oraşului Ordjonikidze.

19 nov. 1942 În ultimele zile în rândul soldaţilor din trupele inamicului se observă o îngrijorare însemnată. Soldaţii evită să iasă din adăposturi. De partea soldaţilor români se observă unele scuzări în faţa cetăţenilor. Aşa de exemplu în satul Kodahdjin soldaţii şi chiar ofiţerii români declară : «Noi nu vrem să le fim duşmani ruşilor : nemţii sunt duşmanii voştri şi ai noştri». Aceste declaraţii reflectă declinul stării morale în rândul românilor, stârnit de veştile privind succesele trupelor noastre pe frontul Stalingradului.

Neavând încredere în romani, comandamentul german a transferat în Osetia trupe SS. … În satul Sudag s-au amplasat 100 tancuri şi blindate purtând desene cu turnul Eiffel şi cap de urs.


This post has been edited by Petre on September 01, 2016 07:39 am
PMEmail Poster
Top
ionionescu
Posted: September 03, 2016 04:44 pm
Quote Post


Plutonier major
*

Group: Members
Posts: 345
Member No.: 2794
Joined: April 26, 2010



Eiffel tower emblem = 339 Inf Division.
Many emblems with bears but not just the head (AFAIK)
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Petre
Posted: September 04, 2016 07:39 am
Quote Post


Capitan
*

Group: Members
Posts: 697
Member No.: 2434
Joined: March 24, 2009



PMEmail Poster
Top
Florin
Posted: September 04, 2016 01:45 pm
Quote Post


General de corp de armata
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1867
Member No.: 17
Joined: June 22, 2003



QUOTE (Petre @ September 04, 2016 02:39 am)
Found this :
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/23e_Panzerdivision

Looking through your link and through others starting from it, it seems that the 23rd Panzerdivision was rather involved near Stalingrad, not in Caucasus, toward the end of 1942.
Unless it was moved fast from one place to another (something that I could not notice in those links).

This post has been edited by Florin on September 04, 2016 01:47 pm
PM
Top
Petre
Posted: September 04, 2016 05:14 pm
Quote Post


Capitan
*

Group: Members
Posts: 697
Member No.: 2434
Joined: March 24, 2009



Yes, it is right : 23.Panzer Division, spitzname - Eiffelturm-Division (nickname - Eiffel Tower Division)
For 23.PD in Caucasus, we can see previous post no.3 and no.4.
PMEmail Poster
Top
bearn
Posted: September 14, 2019 10:10 am
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 1
Member No.: 4327
Joined: September 14, 2019



PMEmail Poster
Top
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

Topic Options Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

 






[ Script Execution time: 0.0265 ]   [ 14 queries used ]   [ GZIP Enabled ]