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> Looking to buy Reproduction Uniform
21 inf
Posted: February 20, 2011 07:34 pm
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QUOTE (Alex30cag @ February 14, 2011 08:26 pm)
http://www.6dorobanti.ro/img/articles/abe9d89c54.jpg
http://www.schipperfabrik.com/store/img/pe...er_romanian.JPG
http://img338.imageshack.us/i/013bf.jpg/

I believe that this equipment is acurate enough to reenact a regular ww2 romanian soldier.
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mihnea
Posted: February 21, 2011 11:42 am
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There were summer tunics in WWII and maybe also pants but these might actually be training pants used for the training uniform. The summer tunics were made from yellowish thick cotton, not khaki like the wool uniform.

I consider cotton pants as incorrect for reenacting WWII, as we should represent the common romanian soldier.

I'm the guy in the middle with brown german boots and yellow sumer tunic (m1939), my uniform is very correct.
(IMG:http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/3884/dsc01193zl.jpg)

For boots I recommend German low boots but do not stain them black, live the natural color, very similar boots were used in the inter war era and are ok for Romanian WWII reenactment.

I don't recommend the archives documentation for WWII reenactment there are many things in those documents are only wishful thinking of the romanian high command and many times not what was happening on the front. So the info from Traditia Miltara website is incomplete without a very thorough knowledge of romanian and foreign uniforms, a study of WWII photos and a personal study of the archives, clippings form documents are not ok, as they can be interpreted.
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mihnea
Posted: February 21, 2011 11:45 am
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QUOTE (Alex30cag @ February 14, 2011 08:26 pm)
http://www.6dorobanti.ro/img/articles/abe9d89c54.jpg
http://www.schipperfabrik.com/store/img/pe...er_romanian.JPG
http://img338.imageshack.us/i/013bf.jpg/

Good examples, I also recommend them.
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darius1941
Posted: February 26, 2011 12:00 pm
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At some of the East Front events we will stay overnight and pitch tents/shelter quarters,ect
What I would like to ask is there a post war Romanian issue shelter piece which we may be able to use?
Would anyone have a photo of these or I would like too see a photo of a original ww2 issue shelter piece.
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aviatorul2000
Posted: February 26, 2011 05:19 pm
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The regulations say that the summer tunics and pants were not only meant
for combat, but also for parade. For further positive information please see
the topic started on 12mar10 on the forum of ASOCIATIA TRADITIA MILITARA,
where only facts, evidence and documents count:

http://www.traditia-militara.ro/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1268419686
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mihnea
Posted: February 27, 2011 08:51 pm
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Are you a reenactor from ATM? Please can you post the translated document were this information is posted, the link you posted is in Romanian only. :( Please do so, as there are many non romanian speakers on this forum.

Please tell me what do you think is more relevant a photograph form WWII or an archival document with the theoretical description of what should a Romanian soldier wear on the front line?

Also can you provide any proof (archival document or authentic photo) of the use of the Md 35 gas masks in WWII, as I see some reenactors use them. This is very important subject as the Md 35 gas masks are very common on the market today. I ask you this because you mentioned "where only facts, evidence and documents count" and I have seen them being used in some photos on the forum you mentioned.


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aviatorul2000
Posted: March 04, 2011 10:52 am
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Here are the answers you seek:
- yes, I am proud to be an ATM reenactor - this is why I am so knowledgeable on this subject. Are you perchance a reenactor from A6D? I sense subjectivity in your approach and in your switching from fabric and color of summer uniforms, to gas masks. You might want to look closer at the uniforms of your own group, but let us not stray from the subject.
- the translation of some of the relevant documents posted on the ATM forum on this subject at http://www.traditia-militara.ro/forum/YaBB...num=1268419686:

12mar10:
* Report to the Cabinet of the State Leader (Conducator) 2009/M 02jan42 2 stars General Gh.Dobre: “by 01apr42 500.000 canvas pants shall be delivered (…):
a) pants made of tunic canvas (my comment: thicker => canvas tunics were already in use)
B) pants made of lining canvas (my comment: thinner) (…)”
Marshall Antonescu’s decision: “The Marshall approves the pants model presented to him (…)”
* “Information Report by the Ministry of National Defense: status of Equipment in May 1942 – General Pantazi:
(…)
VIII. In production: pants: summer canvas / lined canvas (Russian model) for winter”

* Circular Order Nr.24 / 18jun42 – Secretary General of the National Defense Ministry – General Davidescu:
All units west of the river Dnjester, that have seen action at the front, shall prepare following items for a Parade that will take place in Bucharest on 22jun1942: (…)
Officers, as well as enlisted men, with buttoned up canvas tunics, new canvas pants, (…)

15. Mar 2010:
* “As of 15 may 1943, (…) all troops shall wear summer clothing. Wool cloth uniforms shall be strictly forbidden. Wool cloth uniforms will be allowed exclusively for guard shifts during the night, in cold climate regions. (…)"

Should you consider that the complete translation of this text would be beneficial for foreigners, then please do it yourself.
or they can use google translate- documents and photos are all very relevant to the historic truth. You might consider it easier to merely look at the pictures, but try also reading all the letters, you can do it. You may always consider that some orders were never obeyed and/or that some photographs depict exceptions; still they all are related to a historical reality. I remember that we had proven you wrong by showing you photos of Romanian soldiers praying on their knees, when you stated that Romanian soldiers never prayed did that, because regulations prescribed only the standing position for prayer: http://www.traditia-militara.ro/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1244627470
- for pictures of Romanian soldiers in WWII clad in canvas summer uniforms, pls check again the ATM forum at: http://www.traditia-militara.ro/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1268419686. You will notice that some wear them even in winter, some wear the tunics tucked into their pants, although we have the copy of a General Order that strictly forbids that - which means that the soldiers did not always abide by regulations. You can also find photos of Romanian soldiers in canvas summer uniforms in an excellent album, with very few uniformological mistakes - regarding the color of paratroops jump suits (kaki, not grey-blue), marines (kaki, not grey-blue), Palace guards (white aiguillettes, not yellow): Armata Romana 1941-1945, Editura RAI Bucuresti 1996, by C.Scafes, H.V.Serbanescu, I.Scafes, C.Andonie, etc. - pages: 25, 26, 29, 36, 46, 61, 62, 72, 85, 96, 117, 119, 169.
- for M35 gas masks, actually produced for civilian use, worn by Romanian soldiers, stay tuned on the ATM forum, they shall appear soon. I shall give you the link as soon as time permits.
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21 inf
Posted: March 04, 2011 12:39 pm
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In reenactment, the main point is to reenact the soldiers of given era as close to reality of time as it can be done. For the era when military regulations existed, is not to be forget that the regulations were the main basis for equiping soldiers. Of course, during times and war, might apear equipments which were not sticking with the regulations, but ... they existed. It is not ok to cosider that the equipment adopted in time of need was characteristic to a given army or to consider that all soldiers of an army obeyed blindly the regulations. Exceptions existed in all situations, they just have to be treated with common sense when reenacting. Regular equipment didnt excluded improvised, adopted or modified equipment and vice-versa, but in all cases, this were exceptions.

The documents presented by aviatorul2000 existed, as they were showing how romanian army tried to get equiped in time of need during ww2. This documents doesnt exclude existing regulation and the questions still remains open in what percent were this "alarm" uniforms really made. Even in the case all were tailored, 500.000 canvas pants were suficient to equip only a part of ww2 romanian army and one has not to forget that when new equipment was issued, from the begining a significant part of it was sent not to the troops, but in depots, as reserves.
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mihnea
Posted: March 05, 2011 04:37 pm
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@aviatorul2000: Nr1 If you are a member of ATM I'm sure you were very rigorously briefed with informations about me as I'm one of the founders of your association. ;) B) Fortunately I have moved one since then.

Nr2 I will always speak for me alone and not the reenactment group I'm part of. "You might want to look closer at the uniforms of your own group, but let us not stray from the subject." so that is not of my concern. But you seem to represent Asciatia Traditia Militara so I think it's correct to point to some details that are worn by some of your association, not you alone.

Nr3 On the subject of subject of summer cotton uniforms I have said above: "things in those documents are only wishful thinking of the romanian high command" have you ever been in the archives? Posting only bits of documents can lead to misinterpretation. Also because for this era we have many photos I'm going to believe the photos and in the book you recommend there 6 photos of romanian soldiers wearing canvas pants on pages: 25, 46, 61, 72, 73 (you missed this one), 117 the other 8 show only summer tunics witch are well known, but there are a lot more photos of romanian soldiers wearing wool uniforms in the summer. :ph34r: :blink: Again I remind you we are recreating the romanian soldier from the war theaters (portrayed in the photos) not the one envisaged by generals and other in the high command (portrayed in the archives).

Nr4 Also remember you have never ever proven me wrong! You open a subject that was discussed on another forum on witch you have never posted a message. But because you accuse me I will clarify the subject as it is of interest for reenactors. There has never been a command to kneel for prayer in the romanian army from 1877-1945. Romanian soldiers did kneel at some religious services as this is the Orthodox tradition that at some certain points in the service the christians kneel but (extremely important) they kneel at the "order" of the priest they are not ordered by a army officer so this is not a military command. I have never said that romanian soldiers never knelled but I said they never did so at the command of an officer. You can read the topic again from that forum and clarify yourself.

Nr5 I imagine it's very hard to post a picture on a forum so you need many months to do so. Until then I won't change my opinion regarding the Md35 gas mask. Also I hope that the picture is of a soldier on the war front not some officer photographed in a studio or some archives document.

Nr6 It would be so nice if you could answer me directly, not after a consultation with your association members. :(

There are many other off-topic things in your message but I won't bother to answer to them.
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mihnea
Posted: March 05, 2011 05:13 pm
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@21inf: I'm afraid we are waisting our time, I think you remember we have seen this type of behavior before. :(
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mihnea
Posted: March 05, 2011 06:20 pm
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aviatorul2000
Posted: March 07, 2011 12:23 pm
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I agree that most Romanian soldiers wore wool cloth uniforms during WWII,
irrespective of season, but many were issued summer uniforms.
> 21 inf: what you say is right, but here we were not talking about
percentages of implementation of these regulations; we were discussing if
canvas summer uniforms existed and were used by the Romanian army at the
front in WWII. If we have to answer by YES or by NO, then the answer is
definitely YES
>Mihnea: thank you for the photographs you have posted. A gallant gesture
that proves I was not wrong. I had not indicated the pages in the album
where soldiers were depicted during training - just those clad in canvas
summer uniforms in battle. If you follow the link to the ATM forum, you will
notice that some photos have been posted, including one in colors.
It would make sense to help your own comrades to improve their reenactment,
before publicly criticizing others, especially when this criticism is proven
wrong.
About the kneeling for prayer, you had said in the beginning that Romanian
soldiers did never kneel down for prayer. We had answered immediately that
by regulations they did not, but in the field, sometimes they did kneel down
for prayer. You had asked for proof and we provided it. No need to be sore.
http://postimage.org/image/gzbvld44/
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mihnea
Posted: March 07, 2011 01:27 pm
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I assume I'm talking, again, with an alias or a "voice" of the "great" ATM leader one of many present on other forums.

Nr1 Again, my criticism is not wrong (as I have never criticized, yet, ATM for wearing cotton/canvas uniforms), I have the same opinion regarding the use of cotton/canvas pants used by reenactors. I never said that cotton/canvas pants were not used. I said that they were less common than the wool ones witch you agree and therefore if I'm wrong you are also wrong. ;)

Nr2 It's more correct to reenact romanian army in WWII in full wool uniform than to reenact in full cotton/canvas uniform, for summer events. So my colleagues are ok although for the moment we use almost unmodified RSR uniforms we will convert them to md 1924, closer to RSR md1966. But, also, WWII is not anymore our main era.

Nr3 I only criticized you for the Md35 gas masks and you only promised photos, until then,... I think I'm right. :roll:

Nr4 I have never said that "Romanian soldiers did never kneel down for prayer" I'm sure you understand romanian and are able to read that topic. If I ever did so please prove it. Yes I did say, many times, that the kneeling of romanian soldier in formation or otherwise is not mentioned in any regulations. Also please remember that we were talking in that topic about the position for prayer presented in the 1909 regulations and not about kneeling at religious servings presided by a priest. And in all the photos posted on the subject I'm sure that the soldiers did not kneel at the order of their NCO or Officer and then recited a prayer after their NCO or
Officer.

Edit: Corrected some typos.

This post has been edited by mihnea on March 07, 2011 01:30 pm
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21 inf
Posted: March 07, 2011 04:21 pm
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This discussion about summer uniforms and kneeling when praying is old and discussed on another forums. The summer uniforms existed and sometimes romanian soldiers in ww2 kneeled for praying. This were not situations mentioned by army regulations, so, for the sake of the past situations, it had to be mentioned like this. In Romania the public is ignorant about history and it would be for the common benefit to be stated when a situation is reenacted in relation with regulations or not. No one looses anything and everybody win something.

It is the same situation for ww1: transylvanian volunteers had usually regular uniforms, with slight diferences, and we mention the not regulamentary aspects all the time, in order to let public know what they cant figure by themself. There are situation when transylvanian volunteers had totally diferent uniforms in comparison with romanian army, but they were still soldiers of romanian army. If mentioned like this, there is no confusion, if otherwise, they might be easily regarded like austrian or hungarian soldiers, depends on the uniform.
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aviatorul2000
Posted: March 11, 2011 09:45 pm
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What both of you have now said strictly on this subject is correct,
although how the "ignorant public" is best served, is still a matter of debate. I remember that you, Mihnea, in WWII reenactments, have often chosen to wear rare pieces of equipment, like md.1923 uniform, textile helmet cover, and in WWI reenactments you alone have chosen to wear the mod.1895
greatcoat, etc., items that were not characteristic for the majority of Romanian soldiers. I think that reflecting the diversity of equipment is
beneficial; of course, as 21inf said, you must always inform the public - we
always do it and, I hope, so do you.
Please help your colleagues to adjust their RSR equipment for WWII at least
by replacing the RSR buttons and belt buckles that still have the communist
emblem, to add breast pockets on their tunics, to modify the epaulettes
(they need to be pointy or rounded towards the neck), to adopt less modern
footwear, etc.
Regarding the M35 gas masks, pls spare us your bitterness and follow the
link: http://www.traditia-militara.ro/forum/YaBB...=1299879308/0#0
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