T3 & T4

http://news.webshots.com/photo/2567081010104778471sDgehH

I'm currently trying to write on wikipedia about the Romanian armored vehicles during WW2 and it's very frustrating. Look at that picture. I thought that there were only 11 T-3 tanks (Ausf. N) delivered, but this picture is very confusing. That's an Ausf. J T-3 tank with Romanian crew in 1944. Plus a short-barreled Ausf. C T-4. Somewhere in this book I read about two extra T-3 tanks, different from the original 11 units batch. I can't seem to find the paragraph right now.

Please note that I have the original book (bought it from Ferdinand Museum in Bucharest) and it's not my upload.

http://enciclopediaromaniei.ro/wiki/Tancul_T3

?

I've found that paragraph that I was looking for on page 30. On the 24th of February 1944, "Grupul Mixt Care de Lupta Cantemir" had two T-3 tanks, according to the book. However, on the 10th of April 1943, 1st Arm.Div. had two T-3 tanks in the inventory (page 46). Maybe these T-3 tanks survived until February 1944, but that doesn't explain the Ausf. J tank in that picture, which was certainly not from the original eleven Ausf. N batch. Was it just a field modification or was it a new (not really new, but a new unit) tank received from the German army?

Instead joining wiki, you can choose to publish your articles in enciclopedia romaniei, which has the advantage of being scientific oriented. The article linked here is just an example of contribution.

http://news.webshots.com/photo/2567081010104778471sDgehH

I'm currently trying to write on wikipedia about the Romanian armored vehicles during WW2 and it's very frustrating. Look at that picture. I thought that there were only 11 T-3 tanks (Ausf. N) delivered, but this picture is very confusing. That's an Ausf. J T-3 tank with Romanian crew in 1944. Plus a short-barreled Ausf. C T-4. Somewhere in this book I read about two extra T-3 tanks, different from the original 11 units batch. I can't seem to find the paragraph right now.

Please note that I have the original book (bought it from Ferdinand Museum in Bucharest) and it's not my upload.

Can i make a suggestion for this photo. I Think the label is wrong on the photo.
The two tanks are German and the year is probably wrong. My guess is that they are from the panzer division 22? placed behind Romanian Divisions outside Stalingrad. My guess is that they were transfered to a Joint Romanian German workshop to train the Romanian mechanics to fix them before the acceptance of T3's and T4's in 1942.
Pz Divion 22 had low reliability at this time and those models were part of their inventory.

Very interesting explanation raevski,
and more credible than the one presented by Mircea87, since no other source speak about Pz.III J or Pz.IV C in our army use. It is likely to be so, since in 1944 only reserve units from Germany, Greece, Norway or France could use obsolete tanks like Pz. III J.

http://news.webshots.com/photo/2567081010104778471sDgehH

I'm currently trying to write on wikipedia about the Romanian armored vehicles during WW2 and it's very frustrating. Look at that picture. I thought that there were only 11 T-3 tanks (Ausf. N) delivered, but this picture is very confusing. That's an Ausf. J T-3 tank with Romanian crew in 1944. Plus a short-barreled Ausf. C T-4. Somewhere in this book I read about two extra T-3 tanks, different from the original 11 units batch. I can't seem to find the paragraph right now.

Please note that I have the original book (bought it from Ferdinand Museum in Bucharest) and it's not my upload.

Can i make a suggestion for this photo. I Think the label is wrong on the photo.
The two tanks are German and the year is probably wrong. My guess is that they are from the panzer division 22? placed behind Romanian Divisions outside Stalingrad. My guess is that they were transfered to a Joint Romanian German workshop to train the Romanian mechanics to fix them before the acceptance of T3's and T4's in 1942.
Pz Divion 22 had low reliability at this time and those models were part of their inventory.

T-3
10 were delivered to the front outside Stalingrad
1 was sent to Romania for Training
After the Stalingrad Campaign only 2 Survived, 1 from Training in Romania and one from the Front, in 1944 they joined the Cantemir Group, i think...

Anyway i hope that explains the 11 and 2 question.

Yes, it must be an error from the authors of the book in the photo explanation.

I mixed up things, the two T-3s mentioned in 1943 and spring 1944 were Ausf. N from the original batch.

As it was already said, of the 11 T-3s received in 1942, 4 were lost in combat, 4 were abandoned due to mechanical failure and one was captured by the Soviets in the repair shop. Thus in April 1944, the 1st Tank Regiment had 2 T.3s left of which one was undergoing repairs, while the other was used for training. Wether or not they were actually part of the Cantemir Group is debatable IMO. These were two old and rare machines in the Romanian Army, which would probably only create maintenance problems on the front.

Twelve. Eleven were sent to the front and one tank was used for training in Targoviste.

They were not sent to the front, because they were received from the Germans directly on the front. I haven't found any mention of the 12th tank delivered by the Germans in Targoviste.

With the 11 T.3s and T.4s, the 1st Tank Regiment organized the 4th and 8th Companies, each with a platoon of 5 T.3s and one of 5 T.4s, plus the company commander's tank (one T.3 and one T.4).

Since I found the 9 T.3s lost and then only 2 T.3s in the roster of the 1st Tank Regiment, I doubt that there was a 12th T.3, unless some proof is presented of this.

12 T3 tanks mentioned in "Trupele blindate din Armata Romana 1919-1947" page 45 and 76
12 T3 tanks mentioned in Axworthy's book "Third axis, fourth ally" on page 87 and 219

Zaloga is the only source with 11 T3 tanks.

"Trupele blindate" and Axworthy should be counted as one source, because if I am not mistaking, mr. Scafes supplied the info about the armor to Axworthy. He is also one of the authors of "Trupele blindate". However, none of them present a primary source for this.

The question is what happened to this 12th tank, because only the two Stalingrad survivors appear in the 1944 listings.

After doing more reading I found on page 156 of Axworthy's "Third Axis, Fourth Ally" the information that only one T-3 survived the Stalingrad campaign. This would explain the 2 T-3s from early 1944 considering the variant with 12 T.3s given to Romania.

This would be nice and cosy and solve the mystery, but the list of tanks lost during the 1942 campaign contains the following T.3s:

S/N 74802 - hit and set on fire
S/N 74927 - mechanical failure
S/N 74932 - hit by AP shells
S/N 75259 - the tank had been taken over by a German crew and was set on fire before being abandoned
S/N 74930 - mechanical failure
S/N 74804 - captured at the repair shop in Morozovskaya
S/N 74810 - hit by the enemy
S/N 74931 - hit by the enemy
S/N 74924 - mechanical failure

In total 9, which would mean that either 2 tanks survived and there was no 12th T.3 delivered to the training center in Romania or that only 10 T.3s were delivered to the 1st Armored Division. Since the latter is not probable because there are numerous primary sources that state that 11 T.3s were given to the 1st Tank Regiment, I guess that it only lives the first option.

Then there is also the possibility I missed one T.3 when writing down the list...