Stalingrad: excavations near the city., my finds

hy sebastien.

Ok, thanks, I was just wondering.

It is always interesting to read your posts.

A reasonable person should understand that the price of these things in the winter of 1942-43, the zero.
That during the cold -30 -40 and when there is no food, no one thinks about dog tags and coins.
All of these things were in the ravines, in bunkers, in the garbage.
I dug in Kletskaya, Raspopinskoy, Logovsky, Melo Kletskaya, Bazki.
There is a Romanian soldiers in the trenches, we dug them, and then gave the Germans (Volksbund).
I imagine you in Stalingrad in the winter in January at the airport, you are hungry, you are cold.
You throw into the fire, hoses, tires, tires. Because it is not a tree in the desert.
Your face is black from the smoke.
And you're going to think about all sorts of things like coins or medals?
Think about it smart farmer from Romania.
What do your fellow countrymen in '42 in a cold hut.

Let those people rest in peace.
Radu

Radu, I agree with you. However, you or my saying so will not stop them from looking for battlefield finds. Given that fact, we have to hope they are telling the truth about not digging graves, and we can at least try to make the most of it by convincing them to share information.

Earlier in this thread, I encouraged one of them to contact, even anonymously, the romanian authorities with the names and id numbers inscribed on the dog tags they found. They said they would.

I reiterate my plea to ProDigger and others. As the decent person I trust you to be, please send the information you find to once@once.ro.

Many people are still trying to find out about their grandfathers or other relatives they lost in the war. By sending the info you found on the dogtags, you can directly help some people or families heal their wounds. You would be doing a good deed at no cost to you.

I am not trying to defend what ProDigger is doing. I am also not accusing him of digging graves because, in the absence of any proof, I have to take him at his word and give him the benefit of the doubt.

Finally, and most important, I do not want to discourage him from posting images of dogtags or other ID's he may have found. Look, even from the pictures of dogtags he already posted on this forum, we can reconstitute the name, unit, and ID number (nr matriculare) of several soldiers. We can submit this to once.ro or MAPN ourselves. Perhaps they can get in touch with the families of the soldiers.

These soldiers suffered enough in life, no need to desecrate and degrade them in death.
All I am asking for is respect for the dead! It is not an unrealistic demand.
Let these people rest in peace!
Radu

I think you either missed my point entirely or do not care to address it.

And to put it frankly, although I agree with your "request", it still is quite an unrealistic demand. Appropriate, yes. Correct, yes. Unrealistic? Completely so.

I doubt that diggers in the former USSR will be moved by a demand made by a user on a romanian forum.

On the other hand, since they will continue to go about their business anyway regardless of what you tell them, I would rather have something valuable come out of the whole affair: having them provide information on missing soldiers whose families still do not know the fate that has befallen them.

I did not miss your point and I do not want to address it because you may not like my reply. But since you demand a reply here it is: When you buy artefacts removed from war graves by grave robbers, you are an "enabler" and even possibly an "accessory" to a crime considering that grave-robbing is illegal in Russia.

I fail to understand what perverse pleasure you derive from buying a dead solder's dogtag.

I fail to see your point when you say that these grave-robbers will not listen to me. "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing". I am doing something. I can protest! And I am not on my own!

Let those people rest in peace.

Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on August 30, 2012 05:46 am

RaduB wrote:

I just saw your reply.
I truly hope you are using the general "You" and not referring to me when talking about buying artefacts.
If you did refer to me personally, then please watch your words as they constitute libel and show ignorance on your part. However, I hope that you used the general "you" and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt. As a piece of friendly advice for the future, it is more appropriate to employ "one" when generalizing: ex: " I don't see the pleasure ONE derives from buying...etc..etc..".

I have never bought WWII artefacts, have never shown interest, and have absolutely no desire to do so. Anyone who has bothered to follow this forum knows that - and I joined it just after it was created, quite a few years ago.

Having said that, if you take the time to read the thread, you will notice that my comments were meant to encourage those "diggers" to report dog-tag ID numbers to the authorities, even on an anonymous basis, so that families of missing casualties get some closure. I have never encouraged anyone to dig.
Ideally, there should be no digging, I agree. However, since it does happen, unfortunately, and since the diggers couldn't care less about your protest, convincing them to report dog-tag serial numbers to sites such as once.ro sounds like a good idea. It is making the best out of a bad situation. And yes, we can protest against digging (I also find this activity repulsive) and try to get dog-tag serial numbers information from the diggers at the same time for the benefit of countless families who may still be trying to find out what happened to their loved ones. These actions are not mutually exclusive.
Encouraging a digger to inform once.ro of his finds is quite different from encouraging somebody to dig or to buy his findings. This is a pretty simple, clear statement. I have never encouraged anyone to dig and am repulsed by this activity.

You don't have to agree with me. I respect your opinion, although I do not understand it or agree with it.

However, please with more careful with the phrasing of your statements in the future. I will not stand by to have my reputation or intentions distorted or put into question by anyone.

P.S. Victor/Dragos, you are the founders of this forum and we have collaborated on a few occasions since you started: please take note of Radu's post as well as my reply.

This post has been edited by mabadesc on October 08, 2012 06:15 pm

I just saw your reply.
I truly hope you are using the general "You" and not referring to me when talking about buying artefacts.
If you did refer to me personally, then please watch your words as they constitute libel and show ignorance on your part. However, I hope that you used the general "you" and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt. As a piece of friendly advice for the future, it is more appropriate to employ "one" when generalizing: ex: " I don't see the pleasure ONE derives from buying...etc..etc..".

I have never bought WWII artefacts, have never shown interest, and have absolutely no desire to do so. Anyone who has bothered to follow this forum knows that - and I joined it just after it was created, quite a few years ago.

Having said that, if you take the time to read the thread, you will notice that my comments were meant to encourage those "diggers" to report dog-tag ID numbers to the authorities, even on an anonymous basis, so that families of missing casualties get some closure. I have never encouraged anyone to dig.
Ideally, there should be no digging, I agree. However, since it does happen, unfortunately, and since the diggers couldn't care less about your protest, convincing them to report dog-tag serial numbers to sites such as once.ro sounds like a good idea. It is making the best out of a bad situation. And yes, we can protest against digging (I also find this activity repulsive) and try to get dog-tag serial numbers information from the diggers at the same time for the benefit of countless families who may still be trying to find out what happened to their loved ones. These actions are not mutually exclusive.
Encouraging a digger to inform once.ro of his finds is quite different from encouraging somebody to dig or to buy his findings. This is a pretty simple, clear statement. I have never encouraged anyone to dig and am repulsed by this activity.

You don't have to agree with me. I respect your opinion, although I do not understand it or agree with it.

However, please with more careful with the phrasing of your statements in the future. I will not stand by to have my reputation or intentions distorted or put into question by anyone.

P.S. Victor/Dragos, you are the founders of this forum and we have collaborated on a few occasions since you started: please take note of Radu's post as well as my reply.

Mabadesc,
Yes, I meant "one", and you know it!

Libel? How? I have no idea who you are and your real name was not used. This is a forum and on forums people discuss things. Feel free to disagree with me. I expect to be allowed to disagree with you too.

If you are "on my side" as you claim, maybe you should make it look less like you are fighting me.

And yes, irrespective of how much it may irritate... one... I will continue to protest when grave robbers desecrate the war graves of Romanian soldiers.

Radu

Radu, I honestly did not know who you were referrring to, had I known it, I would not have been so troubled.
Thank you for clarifying that you were referring to the general "you", I am very relieved that it was just miscommunication on our part. Sorry if I may have overreacted.

With regards to the actual discussion - absolutely, I am just as opposed to digging graves as you are, and I understand your stance on the matter.

As to disagreeing with each other, it does not irritate me in the least. I enjoy debating with well-informed, educated forum users such as yourself and hope to continue doing it.
Having said that, let's close this issue. No hard feelings on my part, I hope there are no hard feelings on yours, as well.
Best wishes.