Talking with thick-headed Germans about WW2 issues

I went to a discussion forum about World war 2 and the Nazi era, and because I could speak a bit of German, I posted my own opinions there.

There was a thread about whether "Hitler was a Great Military Genius or simply out of Luck"..

I did not pick sides but stated what a historian (a Romanian historian) said.
He simply said that Hitler lost the war because he became out of a normal decent nationalist (which cared for his people, corrected the wrongdoings done at Versailles, recovered lost German land, revived the economy.. ..and so on and so on... ) into an Imperialist.
(and then all hell broke loose on that forum once I said the word Imperialist)

I did not accuse him of starting the 2nd world war, I did not make fun of him or insult him, and I did not even touch upon anything holocaust related.


He went to Russia to conquer that land and make his people his slaves..
No different to what the Spanish had done to the Indians in Central America, in my view

* He needed the resources of Russia, and the oil and the wheat fields of the Ukraine to face the combined American/British adversaries if need be.. and he wanted to populate/colonize these lands with his own Germans

Excuse me but even the least communist Russian would object to that, and take gun in hand)and Stalin profited from every German wrongdoing in the occupied territories and changed his attitude accordingly.
He welcomed anyone mistreated or who had lost family and home, into his red army
It became a war where every single one could not hold himself back from the struggle

I have here a phrase from David Irvings, hitler's war book. He's a very good and objective historian and who is quite popular in Germany because he often defends Hitler or is objective while others are not.. but even he points this out...



He considered the British very High class and he let them live.. (1) and then going to Russia, opening a second front with Britain still unfinished, and assuming the Russians are dumb and inferior and will crumble in 6 months...(2)

These two mistakes is what cost him the war..and brought endless suffering (for the Germans themselves) for what remaining years of the war, and after.

It seems some people on that forum worship him as a God, and won't admit that he also made mistakes... thats one thing

The second...

I was surprised by how many people regard Russians still with hate and contempt.
Most tell me about "Europe's Freedom struggle against Bolshevism"..
For them, a young boy who fights German occupation is a "Bandit"

I told them he's not a bandit, but a Resistance fighter... there were such "Bandits" in the Germany of 1945 and after, sabotaging the Americans and Russian occupation forces. They simply dont get it.



In their view "Russia was going to be liberated from Communism"
(and then placed under German colony, but they dont admit that)


For them every single Russian who fought gun-in-hand against the Germans in that war.. is a "Bolshevik" that must be shot.


It could not possibly have been patriotism or heated for the enemy that made the Russian fight the German... It must have been... the COMMISSAR!
When I told them that the Russians of today don't see the German WW2 soldier as liberator but celebrate his defeat every year in Moscow, ... they tell me the Russian people today have been brainwashed by years of communism.

Yeah,.. the Russian slaw were just waiting for Hitler and his armies to liberate them....

I was expecting the people on that forum to be more balanced, to acknowledge that Hitler made mistakes, or to talk bad about American troops or the British (who after all declared war on them in 2 world wars and bombed their cities... but no)....
All their hatred is directed at the Russian for resisting and defending his soil.


I hope I'm right with most of this


When it comes to this war of conquest with Russia... they don't see themselves as agressors at all, and they see the common Russian soldier as a brainwashed communist



How do you talk to people like that?

This post has been edited by Anton88 on March 18, 2010 05:01 am

David Irving is actually a revisionist and including him in any serious academic work would rise eyebrows and you'd be asked to replace him with a serious source if you want your work to be taken seriously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving#Ruling

A pointless thread. You tell us there is a forum on the internet where some extremists express their opinions. Indeed, there is a lot of BS floating around the internet, but what has this to do with the purpose of this forum?

Can you tell which historian was? Hitler and "normal decent nationalist" is an oxymoron.

I can smell a troll!
Radu

an anti-nazi named Anton88
how fitting

Can you tell which historian was? Hitler and "normal decent nationalist" is an oxymoron.

He knows more about the third Reich then any other historian alive, ..he has had access to documents other had not, he talked with families of important people, he speaks perfect German...I'll stay out of the holocaust debate for a moment here...I think his book is very well documented when it came to that.. (he deviated from the official line and so his life was made into a living hell, - I dont even wanna go there)
I think his book is very fair...about the war in Russia

Sorry If I dont rember who it was, or the exact words that were used
... but the quote makes sense to me.
I was hoping others would agree with it too.


The word normal decent nationalist is not appropriate here.... but I have no better one.. Usually someone who is a nationalist does not go on a war of conquest on the other side of the world..
There is a difference between Nationalism and Imperialism... one is defensive, and the other is more offensive.
Hope this makes sense

This post has been edited by Anton88 on March 18, 2010 02:13 pm

I'm not an anti-nazi, nor a nazi nor a Communist for defending the Russians in ww2...

I'm just trying to be Fair here.


I'm not going to Defend Britain and the US here (the forces of "Democracy") and call them the good guys.. (I only know too good what kind of ""liberators"" they were themselves.

I'm not going to defend Hitler either in his war in the East by breaking the pact and invading without provocation to take what is not his.

hope this clarifies it





PS: and you stop making fun of my name -

"Dead Cat" is not a very intelligent name to have on a Romanian Army Forum, and does not fit either with a Kaiser flag.

This post has been edited by Anton88 on March 18, 2010 02:45 pm

There is no actual point to this topic and it will be closed.

Anton88,

we are trying to maintain a rather serious level of discussion throughout this forum. Thus, posts and topics without added value do not really carry any weight and will be closed. Similarly we do not encourage "Internet photograph topics" without a strong motive behind them or personal attacks against other members.

Try to post less and with more value, otherwise you will eventually drift onto the path others did before, others that were banned.

Thank you.