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> Psichotronic weapons, And other unconventional stuff
udar
Posted: January 25, 2010 10:05 pm
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It was a quite heated debate this days, about involving of some paranormal persons and using of psichotronic devices in politics debate. I wonder how developed are such devices, and how realistic they are?

It is mentioned a wide range of such unconventional weapons, from simple humans with parapsichological or paranormal abilities, to small devices or to bigger ones able to influence weather or produce earthquakes, or some able to influence peoples in large numbers emiting on all kind of frequencies. American HAARP program is often mentioned, as well high power lasers or "guns" with electromagnetic waves. Is this the future of war, or is just more a "psichological" war for influence some peoples?
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Victor
Posted: January 26, 2010 08:21 am
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Just a personal opinion: there are no such thing as para-psychological weapons or para-psychological individuals.

There is nothing "para-psychological" about weapons emitting electromagnetic waves (including lasers). It's pure science. From what I have read, most of the "microwave guns" and lower power lasers are used as "non-lethal" weapons, although being "blasted" by a high power microwave beam is not really peachy.
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dead-cat
Posted: January 26, 2010 08:41 am
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QUOTE (udar @ January 25, 2010 11:05 pm)
It was a quite heated debate this days, about involving of some paranormal persons and using of psichotronic devices in politics debate. I wonder how developed are such devices, and how realistic they are?

there are also a few highly developeded programmes in Romania of this kind, better known as OTV and manele.
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Radub
Posted: January 26, 2010 10:00 am
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http://www.themenwhostareatgoatsmovie.com/ Watch the trailers
The thing is that this is based on a 100% true story. The US really and truly operated a service investigating the use of paranormal activities for military use. It came to nothing.

The fact that Romania is in the grip of such concepts and ideas demonstrates the level of ignorance and stupidity that is rife across a large swathe of the population.
This is a country where people have superstitions about everything. Even superstitions come with their own superstitions (you need to put something red on your baby to prevent evil eye curses).

I know a person who refused to go to a job interview because her horoscope said that she would have a very bad day. She was jobless for 5 moths after that. I also know somebody who broke his relationship with a lovely girl and among others, one important reason was that their "star signs" were not compatible. I met many Romanians who immediately categorise you by your birthday - "Ah, you are a fire sign, that explains why you do XYZ".
Believing that the energy generated by a star 200 thousand light years away had some cosmic influence over you when you were born is daft. Why choose a random star? Why not a bus passing by the hospital? Why not a coal-fired powerplant in China? They all generate energy. As a matter of fact, the X-Ray machine of the hospital where you were born generated thousands of times more energy than some faint speck in the sky. :roll:

By the way, a simple definition of "paranoia" is the belief that purely random items/events/people affect you in some way by the very fact that they occur.

Geoana's crass idiocy made headlines around the world. Never was the saying "you get the politicians you deserve" more true. :lol:

Radu
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udar
Posted: January 26, 2010 12:08 pm
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:lol: well, i know there are many peoples "affected" unfortunately by those bullshit stuff like horoscopes, zodiacs, fortune tellers, star readings and so on.

But i didnt reffer to that, but to more actual science based stuff, like unconventional weapons (sometimes called psichotronic weapons), like very low EM radiations who can affect the brain or other body organs, or high energy beams able to burn armours or missiles, or even more SF ones able to influence weather or produce earthquaqes (including what is called HAARP of americans). And if this can or will become the weapons of the future wars. I saw peoples who wasnt quite naives, and have a solid base of knowledge and who talk about such stuff (again, more scientific based, no "voodoo" like stuff).
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Radub
Posted: January 26, 2010 12:57 pm
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QUOTE (udar @ January 26, 2010 12:08 pm)
But i didnt reffer to that, but to more actual science based stuff, like unconventional weapons (sometimes called psichotronic weapons), like very low EM radiations who can affect the brain or other body organs, or high energy beams able to burn armours or missiles, or even more SF ones able to influence weather or produce earthquaqes (including what is called HAARP of americans). And if this can or will become the weapons of the future wars. I saw peoples who wasnt quite naives, and have a solid base of knowledge and who talk about such stuff (again, more scientific based, no "voodoo" like stuff).

But you see, you confuse voodoo with science. :lol: The truth is that a lot of "fun fair" scientists come up with these kind of hallucinating concepts and the sad thing is that there are always idiots who believe them. For example, there are people who are convinced that science fiction writers like Erich von Daniken are actual historians.

High energy beans that can influence armour? Do you mean lasers? They have been around for ages.

Influence weather? Not new and not impossible. Google "Cloud seeding technology"

You want to see how much people re willing to allow themselves to be hoodwinked and manipulated? Have a look here: http://www.randi.org/site/
Iif you ever come across any other "paranormal concepts", then look up Randi's website and this http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/encyclopedia.html read it. You will be amazed a the extent of human stupidity - it is actually boundless.
The explanation of "psychotronic" given in the encyclopedia is self-evident.

Radu
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Victor
Posted: January 26, 2010 03:55 pm
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QUOTE (udar @ January 26, 2010 02:08 pm)
But i didnt reffer to that, but to more actual science based stuff, like unconventional weapons (sometimes called psichotronic weapons), like very low EM radiations who can affect the brain or other body organs, or high energy beams able to burn armours or missiles, or even more SF ones able to influence weather or produce earthquaqes (including what is called HAARP of americans). And if this can or will become the weapons of the future wars. I saw peoples who wasnt quite naives, and have a solid base of knowledge and who talk about such stuff (again, more scientific based, no "voodoo" like stuff).

By very low EM radiation you understand low frequency EM radiation? If that is the case then a very,very strong ELF EM field is required to induce currents into the human body, but such a field is impossible (to my knowledge) to direct at something, thus it cannot really constitute a weapon, because it will affect also the person using it.

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21 inf
Posted: January 26, 2010 07:28 pm
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QUOTE (dead-cat @ January 26, 2010 08:41 am)
there are also a few highly developeded programmes in Romania of this kind, better known as OTV and manele.

Hahahahhahahahha, this was very good and inspired! They can really drive you crazy in only a couple of minutes, with a high ratio of stupidity! :lol:
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udar
Posted: January 27, 2010 07:47 am
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QUOTE (21 inf @ January 26, 2010 07:28 pm)
QUOTE (dead-cat @ January 26, 2010 08:41 am)
there are also a few highly developeded programmes in Romania of this kind, better known as OTV and manele.

Hahahahhahahahha, this was very good and inspired! They can really drive you crazy in only a couple of minutes, with a high ratio of stupidity! :lol:

Hahaha, well, that is more like a psichological agression
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udar
Posted: January 27, 2010 08:04 am
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QUOTE (Victor @ January 26, 2010 03:55 pm)
QUOTE (udar @ January 26, 2010 02:08 pm)
But i didnt reffer to that, but to more actual science based stuff, like unconventional weapons (sometimes called psichotronic weapons), like very low EM radiations who can affect the brain or other body organs, or high energy beams able to burn armours or missiles, or even more SF ones able to influence weather or produce earthquaqes (including what is called HAARP of americans). And if this can or will become the weapons of the future wars. I saw peoples who wasnt quite naives, and have a solid base of knowledge and who talk about such stuff (again, more scientific based, no "voodoo" like stuff).

By very low EM radiation you understand low frequency EM radiation? If that is the case then a very,very strong ELF EM field is required to induce currents into the human body, but such a field is impossible (to my knowledge) to direct at something, thus it cannot really constitute a weapon, because it will affect also the person using it.

Well, i remember i have an old book, from 70`, something like "Radioelectronica pentru toti", but i need to search it again. Anyway there was described some applications of EM radiations emitions, in diferent frequencies, in one instance is said that at one frequency a monkey used for researches was killed because its internal organs was burned/over heated, or that in some countries was made even small devices, who was used for inducing sleeping, bombarding the brain with low EM frequencies similar with ones emited by brain during his "alpha" stage or something like that, and ones was used even for sedating pacients for surgical operations. There are as well sonic (or ultra sonic) devices used against dogs or animals (as birds, on some airport areas), and i think the oportunity to make some weapons against humans wasnt forgoted.
I remember i saw a while ago, randomly, a Discovery Chanell show, about all kind of weapons, and was presented one used against protesters, was said, something like a rectangular solid antena able to focus a unidirectional emition against just one person, and make him to feel a very strong burning sensation.
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udar
Posted: January 27, 2010 08:18 am
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QUOTE (Radub @ January 26, 2010 12:57 pm)
QUOTE (udar @ January 26, 2010 12:08 pm)
  like stuff).

But you see, you confuse voodoo with science. :lol: The truth is that a lot of "fun fair" scientists come up with these kind of hallucinating concepts and the sad thing is that there are always idiots who believe them. For example, there are people who are convinced that science fiction writers like Erich von Daniken are actual historians.

High energy beans that can influence armour? Do you mean lasers? They have been around for ages.

Influence weather? Not new and not impossible. Google "Cloud seeding technology"

You want to see how much people re willing to allow themselves to be hoodwinked and manipulated? Have a look here: http://www.randi.org/site/
Iif you ever come across any other "paranormal concepts", then look up Randi's website and this http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/encyclopedia.html read it. You will be amazed a the extent of human stupidity - it is actually boundless.
The explanation of "psychotronic" given in the encyclopedia is self-evident.

Radu

Well, i dont think something like HAARP i mentioned is related with voodoo like magic tricks, but yes probably there are a lot of peoples more inclined to believe SF writers as Daniken, or that fairies and dragons exist for real, or that they can read in stars what will happen tomorow.
However, i dont think we can dismiss all as imposible. If i remember correct, French Academy (one of the best scientific forums of the world) told Traian Vuia that flying of a corp heavier than air its impossible, and British Academy said later about flying that even if will be possible, it will be imposible for humans, because at 100 km/h the air will be pulled out from human lungs, and peoples will suffocate being unable to breath. And the same French Academy said previously about stories that in Africa live an animal with a 3 meters long neck, skin colored like a leopard one, a horse like head with 2 small horns, that is fantasies, or about stories with stones falling from the sky that are superstisions and imaginations (those was called later meteorites and are real after all).
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Radub
Posted: January 27, 2010 10:11 am
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Do you mean this HAARP?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Frequenc...esearch_Program
Do you mean this HAARP?: http://www.haarp.net/

Whch one is voodoo and which one is science?

I am not dismissing anything. I strongly believe in science and physics. The "scientists" you described existed and will continue to exist. Some of them will even get high positions and praise in Academies. Please try to find and read Bill Bryson's "A History of Nearly Everything" - you will see that for every scientist that was right, there was a scientist that was wrong. That only proves that humans even very "smart" humans are often wrong. However, all of these "inventions" that were "dismissed" such as the "aeroplane" or the "fast train" work based on basic principles of physics. None of them go against Newtons laws. None of these break any of Newton's laws. No-one ever managed to break any of Newton's laws. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws

However, none of these "paranomal" "energies" and "forces" make sense in a world ruled by what Newton summarised in his laws. These people try to convince us that it is possible to generate more energy than the energy that is stored. They try to convince us that it is possible to generate such energy without any effect on the source of energy.

Where is this "energy" coming from and, as Victor pointed out above, how can it be delivered without breaking Newton's Third Law? Simple! It is "paranormal"!

All of these "paranormal experts" would fail a basic 9th grade physics exam. :D

Radu


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This post has been edited by Radub on January 27, 2010 10:13 am
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udar
Posted: January 27, 2010 08:44 pm
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Hi Radu

Well, in both links you provided can be find references to possible military use of HAARP, at weather modification at least on the famous wikipedia (which in this case i assume is the most serious site). As well, i said about other devices who use all kind of frequencies, who can interfere with human EM field, or brain EM field, as well ones who emit high power energy beams (microwaves or so, not just laser types) and ultrasounds. All of this dont escape the physic laws and have nothing to do with arange some candles in a X,Y,Z or whatever shape, and cut the throat of a black chicken in the middle of the night when Venus is meet Jupiter in a crossing orbit, or stuff like that haha.
It has nothing to do even with popular agreed facts like "deja vu", or "speaking about the wolf and he is at the door" or "you took my word from my mouth" popular says who can be somehow loosely related with a kind of telepaty.
All those devices i said are based on science, and not on some empiric one. And what i wanted to prouve in previous post, is that even the most highly regarded scientific minds can be wrong, and the science evolve, new things are discovered, etc. Science today doesnt reach the highest and most evolved point ever to be reached by humans, is just a phase, and i was interested by posibility that such kind of weapons (even if they are in prototype phases or so) to become the weapons of the future wars.
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Victor
Posted: January 28, 2010 08:00 am
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QUOTE (udar @ January 27, 2010 10:04 am)
Well, i remember i have an old book, from 70`, something like "Radioelectronica pentru toti", but i need to search it again. Anyway there was described some applications of EM radiations emitions, in diferent frequencies, in one instance is said that at one frequency a monkey used for researches was killed because its internal organs was burned/over heated, or that in some countries was made even small devices, who was used for inducing sleeping, bombarding the brain with low EM frequencies similar with ones emited by brain during his "alpha" stage or something like that, and ones was used even for sedating pacients for surgical operations. There are as well sonic (or ultra sonic) devices used against dogs or animals (as birds, on some airport areas), and i think the oportunity to make some weapons against humans wasnt forgoted.
I remember i saw a while ago, randomly, a Discovery Chanell show, about all kind of weapons, and was presented one used against protesters, was said, something like a rectangular solid antena able to focus a unidirectional emition against just one person, and make him to feel a very strong burning sensation.

There is a big difference between low and high frequency EM fields, including the way they interact with the human body.

The scientifically proven effects of low EM fields are the inducing of electrical currents in the body through two main mechanism: induction by the magnetic field and charging of the body surface by the electrical field. A high intensity field is required to induce currents dangerous to the human health and this field cannot be directed (as I already mentioned) and thus cannot be used as a portable weapon without affecting the soldier(s) operating such a weapon.

As the frequency climbs the effect changes to energy absorption, which differs in efficiency and pattern according to the frequency. Also, as the frequency climbs it becomes easier to direct the EM waves and the sizes of the antennas generally decrease. This is why microwaves could easily be used as weapons because it is easier to make high gain antennas that can concentrate the input power (obviously with some losses) in narrow beams which could easily be directed against an opponent without harming the friendly soldiers. The absorbed energy rises the temperature of the body and int he case of frequencies above several GHz, the energy is concentrated in the skin, hence the burning sensation.

There really is nothing new and spectacular about this. The effects were well known for at least 40-50 years.

Sonic waves are something different and should not be confused with EM waves.
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Imperialist
Posted: January 28, 2010 08:21 am
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QUOTE (Radub @ January 27, 2010 10:11 am)
However, none of these "paranomal" "energies" and "forces" make sense in a world ruled by what Newton summarised in his laws.

Where is this "energy" coming from and, as Victor pointed out above, how can it be delivered without breaking Newton's Third Law? Simple! It is "paranormal"!

Making no sense doesn't say whether they exist or not. They could exist and make no sense because we haven't scientifically figured them out yet.

Where do these buddhist monks get their energy from:

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html

Or how about precognitive dreams? What physical laws do they break?

This post has been edited by Imperialist on January 28, 2010 08:21 am
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