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> About the Szekely Division in 1918-1919 battles, Were they beaten or just unsupported
ANDREAS
Posted: December 01, 2009 11:15 pm
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''The Romanian Occupation of Transsylvania in 1918–1919

The Székely division could have achieved serious military successes if it had received the necessary support from the Hungarian government and if it had put a greater emphasis on raising of strength and on developing its striking energy. However, it is a fact that the front of the Székely division was able to hold out for a long time in the region of the Királyhágó and could resist the Romanian divisions superior in resources, especially around Hadad and Csucsa.''

article written by Bod Péter: Magyar Athenas found on internet, an large analysis of the 1918-1919 liberation (he call ocupation) of Transilvania -more than 15 pages only on this issue!

Hallo everybody,
As you just read the oppinion of this historian/writer which is supported by many other authors (so I heard by a friend who read hungarian books on this thema), I wait a authorized voice who read more than me on this issue -I speak about the well known In apararea Romaniei Mari -Campania armatei romane din 1918-1919, Editura enciclopedica Bucuresti 1994.
So please no quotation from this book.
Waiting your contribution. Thank you!
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21 inf
Posted: December 02, 2009 05:48 am
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Szekler division was apreciated by romanian army in 1919 as being the core of hungarian red army, as it was great in number (almost 12.000 combatants) and well armed and equiped. Romanian army enveloped it during 1919 spring offensive in order to avoid direct engagement with this division, the plan being to inactive this battle hardened division and put it out of hungarian OOB. In late spring 1919 -early summer 1919 Sekler division capitulated after being encircled by romanian army.

Informations are from memory, quotation and sources will follow asap.
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Ertogrul
Posted: December 02, 2009 07:39 pm
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Magyar Athenas? I didn't read anything written by Bod Péter :blink: but maybe he was a time traveler :)

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1242578/Peter-Bod
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 02, 2009 08:01 pm
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Indeed 21 inf,
On the same article translated to me by a friend the forces of the 38. honvéd gyaloghadosztály (the 38th Honved Infantry Division known as the Szekely Division by end 1918) were -649 officers, 12 438 soldiers, 68 field guns (76,5mm field guns and 100mm howitzers, all Skoda models) and one aviation squadron, on end december 1918. The composition of the division was 3 complete infantry regiments (the 21,23 and 24th), 1 incomplete infantry regiment (the 22nd), 2 field arty regiments (no details) and 1 heavy field arty battalion (this one with 8 150mm field-howitzers, Skoda model 14). Since november the division was commanded by the well-known Kratochwill Károly, colonel in the former austro-hungarian army. I post this under the reserve that no other source confirm it, so I have no idea of the truthfulness of this informations.
If anybody have something about this, please post it.
Thank you 21 inf, waiting your next posts.
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 02, 2009 08:30 pm
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You are absolutely right Ertogrul!
I am so sorry for the mistake, it's foolishness what I posted as the author of the article. The problem is that I don't find a name, just a huge list of authors in the bibliography from Apáthy István, Eördögh István, Fényes László, Fogarassy László, Fráter Olivér, Jancsó Benedek, Koréh Endre, Kratochvil Károly and many others. If you want I can post their books names, but still no idea who the author is. But I am surely not fabricate this, just to hear myself speaking...
Thank you for pointing me out!
Waiting your contribution...
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Dénes
Posted: December 02, 2009 08:31 pm
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Your timing is appropriate, Andrei, as the Szekler Division was formed on Dec. 1, 1918.

There is an article on the HUngarian version of Wikipedia: http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sz%C3%A9kely_Hadoszt%C3%A1ly

Someone with passing knowledge of Hungarian may translate it, for the basic info.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on December 02, 2009 08:40 pm
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 02, 2009 08:42 pm
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Thank you Gen. Denes,
But I must take to me the mistake. I was wrong and I am sorry.
Still looking of the writer of the article, but the huge bibliography list show it must be somebody who studied it seriousely. At least so it seems. The problem is that not everything is translated in english so... I must wait to my friend... who can read hungarian.
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Ertogrul
Posted: December 02, 2009 09:22 pm
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Gottfried Barna, in his article (" A Székely hadosztály, 1918-1919") says that at the end of March 1919, the forces of the Szekely Division (that time called Szekely Detachment) was 650 officers and 9000 soldiers. They had only 4 usable planes.

http://www.hargitakiado.ro/cikk.php?a=MTI5
http://www.hargitakiado.ro/cikk.php?a=MTQx

Don't worry about your mistake!
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 03, 2009 12:16 am
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I found the author -STOMM Marcel, officer in the austro-hungarian army (and later general in the royal hungarian army) is the writer quoted in the article I spoke about.
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 03, 2009 11:17 pm
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Some corrections on the posted text
The composition of the division on late 1918 was 21. (Honved) Infantry Regiment from Cluj, 24. (Honved) Infantry Regiment from Zalau (the original garrison was Brasov), 32. (Honved) Infantry Regiment from Dej and the 12. (Honved) Infantry Regiment from Satu Mare, 38. (Honved) Heavy Artillery Regiment, unknown Field Artillery Regiment, a.o.
The main units of the 38. (Honved) Infantry Division in late november 1918 when Kratochwill Károly take command of the Division were the 21. and 24. Regiments, the 32. Dej and 12. Satu Mare Regiment were normally assigned to the 41. (Honved) Infantry Division. Perhaps in the effort to strengthen the force of the Division, this two regiments were included in it.
Some romanian documents (transylvanian national guard from Dej) speak about half of the light weapons (rifles, pistols and even some machineguns) leave to romanian national guard by the retreating units of the 32. Regiment, by end november 1918. Does everybody know about this?
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21 inf
Posted: December 04, 2009 05:38 pm
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Are you sure the source said that the weapons were just "leaved" to romanian national guard?

I never seen such "leave" of weapons, not even in the localities where were raised both romanian and hungarian national guards. I read cases when romanian national guard, poorly armed with rifles and low on ammo, asked hungarian national guard to hand over weapons and ammo and the latest refused, so fightings occured. At the end, in the hungarian national guard's warehouse were found more weapons than it could handle, including machine guns and plenty of ammo. This particular action took place in spring 1919 in Transylvania.
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 04, 2009 07:53 pm
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Yes 21 inf,
I confirm that in the book I read about the National Guards from Transylvania, the information I spoke about, was like that :

"The situation of endowment with weapons and ammunition of the romanian national guards, at 20 november 1918 :
In Sibiu, Lugoj, Caransebes, Alba Iulia and Arad some armoury were take-over by the national guards, so in this cities the romanian NG had a complete endowment with rifles, pistols and even some machine guns. In other places like Dej the romanian NG took half of the available light weapons (rifle, pistols, handgrenades, machine guns) of the retreating units of the 32. Honved Infantry Regiment, who left the town and region. In Oravita and Reghin the former austro-hungarian army barracks were take over by the romanian NG. Some quantities of light weapons were found in the armoury and taken by the NG."

I am looking for the book to tell you exactly the name and the authors. The text I quote is accurate but written on a notebook I have.
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 07, 2009 10:20 pm
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QUOTE

Un subiect încă neabordat în literatură este acela al lagărelor de prizonieri (internati militari) si internati civili ce au functionat pe teritoriul Transilvaniei în timpul si după terminarea războiului cu Ungaria (16.04-3.08.1919).

Lagărele au fost înfiintate în 3 centre: Arad, Brasov si Făgăras. Localizarea lor era în Cetatea Aradului, respectiv în Cetatea Brasovului; în ceea ce priveste Făgărasul, nu am o confirmare documentară, dar se pare că si aici lagărul era situat în cetate. Pe lângă acestea, într-un document provenind de la un Comitet de control al Misiunii Interaliate de la Budapesta (condus de americanul Raymond Sheldon) mai figurează ca centre de internare si: 'Spitalul Bertalan (Bartolomeu, azi cartier al Brasovului), Lagărul Cristian si Lagărul Râsnov'. Probabil că si aceste 3 ultime lagăre trebuie considerate ca apartinând tot complexului Brasov.

2 categorii de cetăteni unguri au fost internate în aceste lagăre:

1. Militarii. Cvasitotalitatea militarilor (considerati generic prizonieri de război, desi statutul lor real era acela de internati militari, după cum vom vedea) provenea din Divizia de Secui (Divizia 38 Honvezi Ungară), constituită în decembrie 1918 la Cluj, sub comanda Colonelului Kratochwill Károlyi (de altfel în unele documente este denumită divizia sau detasamentul Kratochwill). Cei recrutati aici proveneau din rândurile maghiarilor si a secuilor din Transilvania, numărul lor a crescut de la 1700 la înfiintare, la 12000 în 21.12.1918, dată la care divizia s-a retras din Cluj. Între ianuarie-aprilie 1919 Divizia de Secui a fost desfăsurată pe un front de 150 km pe linia muntilor Apuseni, în fata Diviziilor 2 Cavalerie, 7 si 6 Infanterie Române. Ofensiva română din 16.04.1919 a împins-o continuu în spate, pe directia Mátészalka, unde este încercuită după câteva zile. Situatia diviziei era dificilă: era în luptă cu românii din motivatii nationale(-iste), dar, datorită atitudinii ei anticomuniste, era rău văzută si de regimul lui Kun Béla. Defectiunea era inevitabilă: conform istoricilor maghiari, la 25.04.1919 militarii diviziei au fost informati că se pot preda individual, depunând armele în schimbul promisiunii de a fi lăsati să se întoarcă în Transilvania; 5000 oameni au ales această cale. Conform surselor istorice românesti, Divizia de Secui s-a predat la 27.04.1919 în (cvasi)totalitate către Divizia 2 Cavalerie, cu circa 10.000 oameni, în următoarele conditii: "...B) internarea ofiterilor si a trupelor până în momentul când se încheie actiunea română prezentă;...d) de îndată ce se termină luptele momentan în curs [...] membrii de familie ai detasamentului secuiesc vor fi lăsati în libertate si se pot întoarce la casele lor". Ofiterii au fost astfel internati la Brasov iar soldatii la Făgăras. După eliberarea din cele 2 lagăre (la începutul anului 1920), li s-a cerut să nu părăsească localitătile lor natale si să se înscrie în evidenta autoritătilor locale. Totusi, din sursele maghiare rezultă ca după circa un an toti (?) acesti fosti prizonieri au plecat în Ungaria.
Istoricii maghiari afirmă că soarta restului militarilor care au refuzat să se predea la 25.04.1919 a fost diferită: unii s-au retras spre Szeged intrând în armata contrarevolutionară a lui Horthy, altii au rămas pe front formând Brigada de Secui care, în iunie a continuat în cadrul Armatei Rosii lupta contra cehilor si în iulie din nou contra românilor. Unii dintre militarii Brigăzii de Secui au fost capturati de Armata Română între 6-7.08.1919 si au fost internati la Brasov (după alte surse la Arad) până în anul 1920, când au fost si ei eliberati. Restul Brigăzii a trecut Dunărea si s-a integrat la rândul ei în Armata Natională a lui Horthy.


I found this article on internet written by Grecu Dan and called Internment Camps in Transylvania 1919-1920 -some interesting informations I guess...
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contras
Posted: January 02, 2010 06:53 pm
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I find something interesting about that division in Campaniile din 1848/1849 si 1919 din Transilvania si Ungaria, by lt.-col. Draganescu Constantin (apeared in 1930).
About OOB in 12 April 1919 (4 days before begining of the battle), Szekely Division was formed by 6000 men with 26 guns and howitzers. It was constitued by Reg 1 Secui "Cap de mort" (1700 men recruited from Trei scaune, Ciuc and Odorhei counties) who was located in Tisa valley, Between Sighetu marmatiei and Hust. An other part from 1-st Regiment and Reg 12 Honved (2400 men) were positioned on Somes valley, and an opther group, (2000men) who was during mobilization in Satu Mare.
In Norhern part (from Korosmezo to north Sighetu Marmatiei) were positioned 3000 Magyar and Ucrainean bolsheviks.
This was the first line, in northern part of the front (were szekely Division) acted.
In second line, were 15-16000 men in Carei - Debrecin zone, 6000 men at Oradea, 2000 men in Szolnok and 25000 men and 50 guns in Bekescsaba - Gyula region.
They were facing (Szekely Division and northern part of the front) by Olteanu Detasament, led by General Marcel Olteanu and composed by 2 batalions, 2 escadrons and one artillery batery (2500 men) and Div 2 Cavalerie in rear.
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contras
Posted: January 03, 2010 02:17 pm
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Here is a short resume about fights inflicted by Szekely division.
In 16-17 April 1919, this division was fixated by gen. Olteanu Group and Div 2 Cav (gen Constantinide) with offensive recon missions. Div 2 Cav (Brig 3 rosiori - col Neagu and Reg 10 rosiori - col Stancov, with an armored train, a machine gun section and one artilery baterry, rejected two attacks on Somes valley (first, night before 16 April, 2-3 company strong, second, in the morning of 16'th, 2 batallions).
17 April, recon from Div 2 Cav reported the beginning of Szekely Division retreat (in perril to be flanked by Romanian advance in south). Gen Olteanu and Div 2 cav followed their retreat. Gen Olteanu Group mantain control of Sighetu Marmatiei and Tisa's gorge at Trebuza, and follow the enemy on Huszt direction.
19 April, Huszt - Satu Mare - Carei - Mezso Telegd line was occupied (Next day, 20 April, Oradea was liberated by General Traian Mosoiu). 20 april, Brig 5 Rosiori (col Papp) occupied Huszt. In Satu Mare were captured 18 officers and 600 soldats, horses, arms, and many ammo.
During his advance, Romanian troops in advance (Reg 9 Rosiori from Brig 2 Rosiori, led by major Margaritopol) defeats succesive ressistance opossed by Szekely Division in Poresalma and Ohorito, and next, Brig 2 defeats enemy resitence at Gyortelek. Romanian losses: 2 officers (slt Mitisiade Leonida and Neuman) and 11 soldiers (from Reg9Ros and R4R)dead, and 3 officers, 41 soldiers wounded.
After that, in 22 April, Szekely Division was in Matesalka - Hodoz - Vaja zone. Romanian troops revceived battle orders to defeat them and prepare to attack Debrecin. The main attack against Szekely Division was conducted by Div 2 Cav and 4 batallions from 7 Div and 2 art batteries. Brig 2 rosiori (gen Davidoglu) with one art. battery attack from east, from Gyortelek, and col Rotaru Detachament, from 7 div, attacks from south, at Matesalka. In the same day, enemy was defeated, and Brig 2 Rosiori occupied Kis Kocsard, and col Rotaru entered Matesalka. (Romanian losses at Matesalka: 4 deads and 21 wounded).
Szekely Division retreated north and sent parliamentars for surrender in the evening of 22 April. Romanian comander sent them back with surrender conditions, but no answer. Szekely Division continued their retreat towards Vasaros Nameny - Csap and Nyreghaza.
In the morning of 23 April, Romanian troops decided cu continue to follow the enemy, on 3 columns:
north, Brig 2 rosiori with one Battalion from Reg 23 Inf, on direction Vasaros Nameny - Csap.
centre, Esc 3 Ros and 4 Ros, Bat 2 from Reg 27 Inf (major Stavri)
south, Brig 3 Ros, bat 1 and 3 from Reg 16 Inf, under colonel Ioan command. Infantery regiments were from 7'th Inf Div, who fought south of Div 2 Cav.
Enemy resistences were defeated at north Dobos, Vitca, Vasaros Nameny, Varsany (gen Davidoglu), Or Vaja, Nyir Mada (maj Stavri) and Nyir Negyes, Hodasz, Nyir Bator, Kantor Janos (col. Ioan).
In the evening of 24 April, Romanian troops were: on Bacs Aranyos - Kopacs Apaty (northern detachament), Gyulahaza (centre) and Kalo Semyen - Maria Pocs - Bessenyod (south).
Next, northern detachament, was headed toward Csap, to interdict comunication onto Galitia, with Soviet Bolscheviks. In 26 April defeat enemy resistance at Zahony - Zsurk zone, at cross the Tisa river, and later meet Csekhoslovakian forces. Acces to Galitia was forbidden.
Central detachament, major Stavri reach Doghe and his recon reach Tisa river.
Southern Detachament, col Ioan, defeats at 25 April 2 enemy battalions armed with many machineguns and 2 guns, and next day attack enemy forces in Pszony Oros - SE Nyreghaza (1700 men and 1 art battery). The attack lasted until night. Romanian commander sent reinforcements (2 batal and 1 art battery - gen Dragu Constantin, chief commander of Brig 41 Inf).
In 27 April, col Ioan resume his attack and takes Nyreghaza. Szekely Division was now defeated and without escape, because northern and southern detachaments surrounded it and reached Tisa river. Szekely Division surrender in 27 april.
It was surrounded in Demecser - Nyir Bogdany - Ibrany - Tasz zone, and were captured 477 officers, 4545 soldiers, 804 horses, 23 guns, 116 machineguns, etc.
About their combat value, you can judge yourself.
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