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ANDREAS
Posted: December 15, 2009 08:55 pm
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Hallo 21 inf,
I am for sure interested about the OOB of the Oradea unit from the book Stare de veghe, and if you can post it please! Thank you!
Hallo Jeroen and thank you,
About the information regarding hellicopter unit from Caransebes prepared to attack Timisoara, I heard that a hellicopter unit from Brasov (no idea why such a far situated unit ?) was prepared for such a mission... but I can't remember why the mission was delayed. I read about it in a newspaper, about Ceausescu's plan to brake the Timisoara rebellion, including the patriotic guards from Oltenia and other plans like that.

Back to my undertaking I can for sure rebuild the tank units of the 11th Division, from the basic battalion-size unit of 21 tanks. That means the tank regiment of the division had 64 tanks (3 battalions of 21 tanks + commanders tank) and each of the 3 mechanised regiments had a tank battalion of 21 tanks, so the total tank inventory of the 11th Division was 127 tanks all TR-77-580 type. Exactly how Col. Rez. Bartos write.
But no idea of the TAB basic size unit battalion, nor regiment, so if anybody had a idea please post it!
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dead-cat
Posted: December 16, 2009 09:38 pm
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QUOTE

I read about it in a newspaper, about Ceausescu's plan to brake the Timisoara rebellion, including the patriotic guards from Oltenia and other plans like that.

a few trainloads arrived, but they were "taken over" at the rail station and quickly joined the rebellion.
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 17, 2009 12:39 am
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To be more accurate dead-cat,
I believe that the patriotic guards members from Oltenia take no action against the rebelled population from Timisoara, and soon turn back to the railway station and left the city. Not exactly 'joined the rebellion'! But the idea is correct.
On the other hand I don't know how could the attack mission (for the aircraft or hellicopters) over Timisoara be explained and what would be targeted? Can't even imagine if such a mission would be accomplished, what would be the fate of the Army High Command? Would Romania be invaded by Warszaw Treaty armies? Just wondering...
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dead-cat
Posted: December 17, 2009 12:00 pm
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QUOTE

I believe that the patriotic guards members from Oltenia take no action against the rebelled population from Timisoara, and soon turn back to the railway station and left the city. Not exactly 'joined the rebellion'!

my neighbour was among those who awaited the first train at the rail station. he said they joined. don't know about the other trains though.
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21 inf
Posted: December 17, 2009 05:14 pm
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11th Infantry Division on post-ww2 period

The 11th Infantry Division was formed on 2nd of August 1951 by order 00317736 of Marele Stat Major. For the begining was raised 3rd Infantry (small) Regiment (Regimentul 3 Infanterie redus), in september 1951. The OOB was:

-the command of 3rd IR, with
-1 mixed transmision platoon
-1 pioneer platoon
- the rear of the regiment
-1st Rifle Batalion (small)
-1 artilery batery including: 1 AT 57mm platoon, 1 76 mm canons platoon, 1 120 mm mortar platoon.

In 15 october 1951 3rd IR (practicaly the 11th Division) garisoned in Oradea.

In January 1954 the OOB of the regiment was as following:
-the command of 3rd IR, with
-headquarter (statul major)
-political oficers (aparatul politic)
-weapons and services chiefs (sefi arme si servicii)
-1 recon platoon
-1 chemical platoon
-1 pioneer platoon
-1 AA machinegun platoon
-1 transmisions company
-1 Rifle NCO Batalion (Batalion puscasi cadre)
-1 Rifle Batalion with the following OOB: 2 Rifle companies, 1 NCO company (companie cadre), 1 machinegun company, 1 mortars company
-regimental artilery with 1 artilery batalion
-rear of the regiment (spatele regimentului)
-NCO school (scoala de sergenti).
Total number of men was: 120 oficers, 50 contract NCO (sergenti reangajati), 182 sergeants, 798 soldiers, 16 civil employees, 27 cavalry horses, 32 artilery horses and 54 column horses (cai coloana).

In 1957 the regiment received "mechanised" denomination.

In 1959 the name of the regiment is changed, becoming now 21 Mechanised Regiment.

In January 1960 OOB was made from 149 oficers, 26 NCO, 168 sergeants, 739 soldiers and 15 civil employees.

In november 1964 the regiment had 24 T34 tanks, 12 self-propelled guns SU76, 1 BTR-40, 1 BTR-152, 1 50PU car, 3 soft-skinned cars, 162 trucks, 20 special trucks (autospeciale), 1 M72 motorcycle.

This post has been edited by 21 inf on December 17, 2009 05:17 pm
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21 inf
Posted: December 17, 2009 05:32 pm
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Organisation of the regiment in 1965:

Regiment Command
I. Second Commander (loctiitor comandant)
Headquarter (stat major)
Party comitee (Comitet de partid)
Services Chiefs (Sefi servicii)
Technical Service
Financiar Service
Rear of the Regiment

II.Subunits for battle security (subunitati de asigurare de lupta)
-1 recon company
-1 transmisions company
-1 pioneer company
-1 chemical recon and radiations platoon

III.Fighting units
-3 infantry batalions

One motorised infantry batalion consisted of:
- comand
- headquarter
- 1 transmision platoon
- infantry companies
- 1 AT 57 mm guns platoon
- 1 82 mm mortars platoon
- 1 platoon autotransports (pluton transport auto)
- 1 suply platoon
- 1 medical station
- 1 mechanical repair workshop

The tank batalion had:
- headquarter
- 1 transmisions platoon
- tank companies
- self-suply team (grupa de gospodarie)
- 1 workshop for tank repairs

The regimental artilery had:
- chief of artilery
- chief of artilery suply (seful inzestrarii artileristice)
- comand team (grupa comanda)
- 1 120 mm mortar batery
- 1 self-propelled 76 mm guns batery
- 1 AA 2.U-2 machineguns platoon

Rear units:
-regimental club
-aid station
-artilery workshop
-custode poligon
-workshop for tank and auto repair
-technical checkpoint
-motorised transport company
-material warehouses
-"stoc" material warehouses
Total numbers of men: 160 oficers, 76 NCO's, 252 "gradati", 1079 soldiers, 35 civil employees.
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21 inf
Posted: December 17, 2009 05:39 pm
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In 1992 the regiment had:
-21 TR580 tanks
- 72 TAB71
- 11 TABC79
- 12 self-propelled guns SU76
- 18 TAB71 Ar
- 1 TAB71 A
- 3 TAB77 A
- 23 MLI84
- 3 TABC Ch79
- 3 T.E.R.A.
- 27 120 mm mortars model 38-43
- 12 120 mm mortars model 82.

In 1st July 1994, based on Ordinul General nr. 3 from 24 January 1994 of MApN ministry, the 21st Mecanised Regiment is disbanded, being continued by 21st Infantry Batalion "General Traian Mosoiu".
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 17, 2009 10:59 pm
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Thank you 21 inf,
Wonderful work you done! I found many interesting things from the unit history including the fact that in the '60s the 'mechanised' term was nothing more than a joke! I mean before the large production of the TAB vehicles after '70 who filled the mechanised regiments and divisions with armored personnel carriers instead of trucks! And also that in 1992 the regiment had some MLI vehicles, fact that I didn't know. The MLI produced in relative small numbers (found on the site of Ministerul Apararii Nationale -less then 180 vehicles produced until 1994) was not a common vehicle to be found in a mechanised regiment!
Ok, thanks again 21 inf and please post anything helpful, if you can!
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Agarici
Posted: December 20, 2009 08:46 am
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You might find this source useful (the armed forces section): http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=5332
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piero1971
Posted: August 30, 2010 07:17 am
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Buna Dia!

hey, I am researching Romanian OOB and TOE for the late 1980's and there are some great threads here.

however, I am not able to find the OOB and TOE for the combat/military units of the Securitate. I have no idea of the size of that force?


likewise, in another thread ont he patriotic guard, there is no mention of an OOB, if ever there was a precise one!

let me know!!!

mulzu melsc
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Jeroen
Posted: August 30, 2010 09:17 am
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Well ciphers to share at least.

One source states by 22 december 1989 poltical police of Securitate had 13,275 officers and 984 civilians.
Others say thes were 8,159 officiers and 5,105 warrant and NCO, 984 civvies.
A 2004 source counts 15,312 791 maistri militari 3179 subofficers 1228 civilians
A number of 2426 served with special units. all data via CWIHP.

I remember spotting at Banease airfield northside in 1990 about 5/6 Mi8-Mi/17 and some Alouettes all believed to be operated by MinisterInterior forces i.e. Securitatae.

This post has been edited by Jeroen on August 30, 2010 09:19 am
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piero1971
Posted: September 02, 2010 09:32 pm
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QUOTE (Jeroen @ August 30, 2010 09:17 am)
Well ciphers to share at least.

One source states by 22 december 1989 poltical police of Securitate had 13,275 officers and 984 civilians.
Others say thes were 8,159 officiers and 5,105 warrant and NCO, 984 civvies.
A 2004 source counts 15,312  791 maistri militari 3179 subofficers 1228 civilians
A number of 2426 served with special units. all data via CWIHP.

I remember spotting at Banease airfield northside in 1990 about 5/6 Mi8-Mi/17 and some Alouettes all believed to be operated by MinisterInterior forces i.e. Securitatae.

interesting.
I presume a majority of these officers and warrant officers etc. would be for "police" duties and surveillance of the population.

I am curious about the "special units" you mention here. would these be anti-insurrection combat units? or anti-riot police-type?

do you know if there was spcial equipment for these? i.e. TAB-71's etc.?

I am often in Bucharest, perhaps you know a library that has good info on this? I can read Romanian (slowly)...


in the meantime I found this:

"According to the Decree 130/1972 at 9th of April 1972 the Council of State Security (the coordinating political entity of D.S.S.) has been re-integrated into the Ministry of the Interior (previously became separate as of 1968-04-04) and the D.S.S. (Securitate) has been organised in 6 (six) Directorates (noted with Roman digits - to be precise), as follows: DIRECTORATE I - Internal Informations; DIRECTORATE II - Economic counter-informations; DIRECTORATE III - Counter-espionage; DIRECTORATE IV - Military counter-informations; DIRECTORATE V - Security and Guard Service DIRECTORATE VI - Criminalistic/Penal The Security Troops were not specifically a directorate, but organised as military units (Romanian abbrv. - UM). A particular unit was UM-0640, located in northern Bucharest's suburb of Baneasa, better known as U.S.L.A. (Rom. abbrv. approx. for Unit Specialised in Counter Terrorist Warfare). This unit was charged with counter terrorist activities in the main airports (Otopeni and Baneasa in Bucharest), as well as protection for Embassies and foreign diplomats in Bucharest. In the text, the number given for security troops is a guess at best - the exact numbers are of course highly classified info and are not supposed to be available to the public, even today"

clearly it's in Directorate V that security troops would be part of.

This post has been edited by piero1971 on September 02, 2010 09:45 pm
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MMM
Posted: September 03, 2010 02:25 pm
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QUOTE
would these be anti-insurrection combat units? or anti-riot police-type?

What is the difference?!?!

This post has been edited by MMM on September 03, 2010 02:26 pm
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piero1971
Posted: September 03, 2010 07:57 pm
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QUOTE (MMM @ September 03, 2010 02:25 pm)
QUOTE
would these be anti-insurrection combat units? or anti-riot police-type?

What is the difference?!?!

there would be some overlap, but, say, anti-insurrecton would be units able to operate against armed people (using rifles, etc. - guerilla type)
anti-riot use non-lethal weapons against civilian protestants (also unarmed, usually - or with molotovs, stones, etc.)

I am sure Securitate had units specialized for both cases, but which ones?
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 19, 2010 02:25 pm
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New information about artillery units of the romanian army in 1989. Source : 165 ani de existenta a artileriei romane moderne /Bucuresti 2008, Colectiv de autori, coordonator al lucrarii Col. dr. Adrian Stroea, Referent stiintific prof. univ. dr. Teodor Frunzeti (can be downloaded from this forum)
So in 1989 the artillery units of the romanian army were:

-1st Army:
---1st Mechanised Division : 16th Artillery Regiment Mihai Bravu, 113 Missile Battalion Ploiesti,
---57th Tank Division : 43th Artillery Regiment Mihai Bravu,
---2nd Mountain Brigade : 206th Mountain Artillery Battalion Halchiu
-direct army subordination : 29th Antitank Artillery Regiment Alexandria

-2nd Army:
---9th Mechanised Division : 13th Artillery Regiment Medgidia, 203 Missile Battalion Murfatlar,
---10th Mechanised Division : 3rd Artillery Regiment Bacau,
---67th Mechanised Division : 285th Artillery Regiment Braila, ?? Missile Battalion Braila
-direct army subordination : 32nd Operative Tactical Missile Brigade Tecuci, 25th Artillery Regiment Braila, 79th Antitank Artillery Regiment Braila

-3rd Army:
---2nd Mechanised Division : 9th Artillery Regiment Drobeta Turnu Severin, 180th Missile Battalion Craiova,
---18th Mechanised Division : 39th Artillery Regiment Timisoara, 207th Missile Battalion Lugoj,
---4th Mountain Brigade : 41st Mountain Artillery Battalion Ramnicu Valcea
-direct army subordination : 1st Artillery Regiment Slatina, 59th Artillery Regiment Lugoj, 24th Antitank Artillery Regiment Lugoj,

-4th Army:
---11th Mechanised Division : 26th Artillery Regiment Ineu, 151st Missile Battalion Oradea,
---81st Mechanised Division : 315th Artillery Regiment Simleu Silvaniei,
---6th Tank Division : 7th Artillery Regiment Floresti,
---1st Mountain Brigade : ??th Mountain Artillery Battalion Prundu Bargaului,
---5th Mountain Brigade : 86th Mountain Artillery Battalion Abrud,
-direct army subordination : 37th Operative Tactical Missile Brigade Ineu, 69th Artillery Regiment Simleu Silvaniei, 612th Antitank Artillery Regiment Baia Mare,

Artillery Command /Strategical Romanian Army Reserve
---17th Braketrough Artillery Brigade Tecuci
---8th Gun Artillery Brigade Focsani
---65th Antitank Artillery Regiment Braila,
---42th Antitank Artillery Battalion Sighisoara
---62nd and 95th Technical Missile Bases a.o.
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