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Jeroen
Posted: May 04, 2009 10:17 am
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QUOTE (Dénes @ March 22, 2009 08:12 am)
AFAIK, the Hungarian Army was the first to jump to the help of the beleaguered Rumanian army in late December 1989, flying in supplies and small arms, as requested by Bucharest.

Gen. Dénes

Denes

When did these flights commence first, to what airports, type of aircraft and loads?
What small arms did the Rumanian army need additionally in late december 1989?

thanks
Jeroen

This post has been edited by Jeroen on May 20, 2009 12:04 pm
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Dénes
Posted: May 04, 2009 11:28 am
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Hello Jeroen,

I am sorry, I cannot provide any further details, as what I wrote is based on my memory (amazingly, almost 20 years passed by since!).

Perhaps by checking the 'net you will find more info. If you do, please let us know.

Gen. Dénes
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ANDREAS
Posted: May 04, 2009 09:19 pm
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Hello Jeroen,
I'll try to come soon with a TOE for Romanian Air Force in 1991 including aircraft tipes and numbers on every base.
And regarding the help offer form Hungarian Army in the days of our Revolution, I can surely say that not single arms or ammo delivery trough air, ground or sea was happened in that period. By the way the phone given by general Gusa, romanian chieff of staff in 23.12.1989 to gen. Karpathy clearified the issue, and no further offer come from hungarian side. On the other hand it's true that medicines, food and clothes come to Romania from Hungary as aid for the romanian population and also assistance personnel. But no, no such thing as weapons and ammunitions for the romanian army. This is only legend!
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redcooper
Posted: May 09, 2009 01:20 am
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QUOTE (Dr_V @ November 27, 2003 10:07 pm)
[QUOTE]PanzerKing:

What really prevented the real conflict was that the Soviets were pulling the strings in the area and they didn't want a conflict here.

This statement is based on what?
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Jeroen
Posted: May 09, 2009 03:04 pm
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ May 04, 2009 09:19 pm)
On the other hand it's true that medicines, food and clothes come to Romania from Hungary as aid for the romanian population and also assistance personnel. But no, no such thing as weapons and ammunitions for the romanian army. This is only legend!

Thanks Denes and Andreas for clearing things up!

I am really interested in that TOE from 1989 or 1991.

About legends and reality.
I was involved in one action to deliver goods and info to the romanian people by ground or air in december 1989! But de date of our action was 15th and 16th december, the very exact weekend Tokes was ordered to leave or to be displaced and the revolt started in Timisoara! At that time I was a student and enthousiatically involved and interested in democratization in Eastern European countries, thrilled by all developing events like in Leipzig, Berlin, Praha. In autumn 1989 in Budapest we made contacts with Hungarian students to unite our efforts. So it was decided to organize some political action in Transsylvania just before Christmas to show our solidarity with the Romanian people. It was planned to send as many as 20 Dutch and 20 Hungarian students guised as young tourists our backs filled with all sort of economical and consumption goods Romanian people was short of, and politically neutral Christmas wishes on cards in both Romanian and Hungarian language by train from Budapest to Cluj into Transsylvania. There we were supposed to disperse and meet with the Romanian people.
Also we had many cameras and video equipement with us to document our action and Romanian life for Dutch television news programs(Journaal, AVRO televizier) and others. Well that were some parts of our plan. We did not know if the Romanian borderguards would let us in at all. So we had a back up plan. In case we were denied access we had gas canisters and lots of ballons to be filled with gas and the Christmas wishes cards to be send by air and prevailing westwind into Romanian airspace to be picked up by farmers from their fields...! We idealist young students. Well of course this was not kept all that secret so the Hungarian authorities knew we were going. In Budapest we were informed by Hungarian authorities that they had forbidden all Hungarian students to become involved afraid of some international incident.
Moreover the Hungarians told us that Romanian knew we were coming at that Securitate spies were already in budapest to keep eyes on us! in fact they were to travel with us in the same train.
Also a Hungarian military officer, claimed to be some general advised us not to let up any ballons from Hungarian soil near the Romanian border (at Biharkeresztes). In case we would he was obliged to order hungarian air defense or borderguards to open up fire at our balloons to prevent them illegaly passing the border and enterring Romanian airspace. We discussed what to do...
Any way we had not to decide as the Romanian let us in.
So sunday 16th not knowing what was happening a few 100 km south in Banat we started our action at three different locations. Our group escaped Romanian securitate or police when locals warned they were coming. Six others of us were arrested and released after searching and an official warning that we had to act as tourists else.......
The rest is history.............
When we returned in Budapest with the last train before the international borders with Hungary were closed, Romanian forces had opened fire upon demonstrants and the people...
I still have some AK47 7.62 cases I later (1990) found at the roof of the Opera building in Timissoara that some guys fired from there aiming at.... who knows?
Four with red/copper percussion cap and number 85 on the base
three with yellow/copper percussion cap with number 21 and opposite number 92.
Can some Romanian ammunition specialist tell me which batche, when and where these cases were produced and which units may have used them?

Later the successor of Securitate (SRI) claimed in a report in july 1994 that since december 9th 25.000 or 35.000 foreign agents had enterred Romania to provoke a revolution. Most had come from Moldova others from Hungary.
In a earlier report SRI claimed the uprise in Timisoara was (partly) provoked by Hungary.
I wonder if they counted us Dutch also!? Happy Christmas to you all!

Yes already 20 years ago, European life has chanced since that autumn!

Jeroen

P.S.
And I still want the Romanian borderguards to return all our films and videotapes they took from us then.

This post has been edited by Jeroen on May 09, 2009 03:08 pm
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ANDREAS
Posted: May 10, 2009 01:10 pm
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Hallo Jeroen,
The story you just told is very interesting indeed and tells a lot about the real situation in late 1989. And a possible answer to your question about the Dutch group is positive, it is very possible that they are counted as provocateurs in connection with hostile western or hungarian secret services.
As promissed I will soon come with the Air Force TOE by 1991 but since it is now only 60% complete it will take more time... I was told by a buddy from Bacau he will soon have a detailed TOE for 1991 of the Aviation Division from Ploiesti so... I must wait...
I have some new details about the Romanian Air Force TOE around 1955...check it out...
Best regards.
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Dénes
Posted: May 10, 2009 04:08 pm
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ May 10, 2009 07:10 pm)
I have some new details about the Romanian Air Force TOE around 1955...check it out...

Where can we check that TOE out?

Gen. Dénes
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ANDREAS
Posted: May 11, 2009 10:42 pm
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Hallo Denes,
I add new info on the topic opened before by Jeroen called Diviziei AVT.
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Agarici
Posted: May 13, 2009 08:35 am
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I don't know if you've already seen this link: http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?...d=119&Itemid=47
It’s a well written and documented article (given the context it describers), and it includes some data you might find useful. Also, the material is being constantly updated.
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Agarici
Posted: May 13, 2009 06:31 pm
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OFF-TOPIC: on the same site, an interesting account of the Transdnestrian conflict in Rep. Moldova, 1992:

http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?...d=152&Itemid=47
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Jeroen
Posted: May 13, 2009 07:42 pm
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Thanks Agarici!

Adding to that article I want to express my doubts 14th Armiya had actualy some staff independent heli detachement (OVO) with 4 Mi4 Hound piston-engined(?) helikopters.
I guess they were mistaken and must be Mi-2 or otherwise Mi8.
Mi4 were flown from Chinese production in Albania ( until 2004), but nowhere else in Europe in 1991, Soviets withdrew them in 70-ies, possibly Mi4PP jammers being the last version to be replaced by Mi8.

Where were these Mi24RKhR/K based?

Furthermore the Moldovan AF is said to have its homebase at Chisinau.
In fact GE picture (dated?) from Marculesti aviabaze gives at least 4 wilga including one camouflaged (in stead of one), one An24, 6 stored Mig29, and 2 Mi8/17 and two An2 outside with possible more a/c inside the maintenance hangar.

At Chisinau among others one Wilga and 26 (stored) ka26, etcetera.
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Jeroen
Posted: May 20, 2009 12:12 pm
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QUOTE (Jeroen @ May 04, 2009 10:17 am)
QUOTE (Dénes @ March 22, 2009 08:12 am)
AFAIK, the Hungarian Army was the first to jump to the help of the beleaguered Rumanian army in late December 1989, flying in supplies and small arms, as requested by Bucharest.

Gen. Dénes

When did these flights commence first, to what airports, type of aircraft and loads?
What small arms did the Rumanian army need additionally in late december 1989?

It seems that Rumania preceeded first to jump to "help" its neighbour!
Already in 1956!

came across a passage in Pacepa`s Red Horizons.
Page 259 of my Dutch 1990 copy, my translation

According Pacepa Gheorghiu-Dej told him he was informed by Ceausescu that Rumania had secretly started delivering arms and intelligence to Hungarian sercurity forces at certain border areas for self defence....????

Also Ceausescu, in political command for actions in Hungary, did send a few hunderd tourists, Hungarian etnic securitatea agents into Hungary. In 1956

Is there any independent proof of these remarks?

Jeroen
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 14, 2009 08:36 pm
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Let's build together a regular mechanised division and a reserve motorised division on the information given us by Colonel in Reserve Grigore Bartoş, ex-commander of the 11th Mechanised Division from Oradea on a battalion-regiment level:

"some data about the ex-11th Mechanised Division and about 89th (Reserve) Motorised Infantry Division which would be raised after mobilization in Bihor and Arad districts. I was the former chief of staff of the 89th (Reserve) Motorised Infantry Division ... the total force of these two divisions totaled over 50.000 soldiers
and were made of :
• două comandamente de divizie;
• trei regimente mecanizate (3 batalioane pe T.A.B. sau M.L.I., un batalion de tancuri, un divizion de artilerie, 1 baterie de autotunuri, o baterie de rachete antitanc, o baterie de tunuri antitanc, o baterie de mitraliere şi rachete antiaeriene, o companie cercetare, o companie de transmisiuni, o companie de geniu, o companie stat major, o companie logistică şi alte subunităţi);
o trei regimente de infanterie moto (nu erau dotate cu blindate), organizarea identică cu a unui regiment mecanizat);
o un regiment de tancuri;
o un batalion de tancuri;
o două regimente de artilerie x 3 divizioane;
o două divizioane de artilerie antitanc;
o două batalioane de cercetare;
o două batalioane de geniu;
o două batalioane de transmisiuni;
o un divizion de rachete tactice;
o două divizioane de artilerie antiaeriană;
o două batalioane logistice;
o două spitale de linia I;
o alte subunităţi speciale.
Cele două divizii însumau, ca principale guri de foc: trei baterii (instalaţii) de lansare a rachetelor tactice care puteau întrebuinţa muniţie nucleară sau chimică; 48 de instalaţii de lansare a proiectilelor reactive, provenite din modernizarea „KATIUŞA” puteau folosi muniţie clasică şi chimică; 24 instalaţii cu 40 tuburi lansatoare fiecare şi 24 de instalaţii cu 24 tuburi lansatoare; 36 obuziere calibru 152 mm; 36 obuziere „SKODA” calibru 100 mm; 108 tunuri calibru 76 mm, 36 tunuri antitanc calibru 100 mm; 18 tunuri antitanc calibru 75 mm; 108 aruncătoare de bombe (mine) calibru 120 mm; 324 aruncătoare de bombe calibru 82 mm; 148 de tancuri din care 127 erau TR-77-580 (tun calibru 100 mm) şi 21 erau T-34-85 de fabricaţie sovietică; 162 tunuri antitanc fără recul (AG-9); 36 autotunuri; 36 instalaţii de lansare a rachetelor antitanc dirijate, instalate pe autovehicole blindate şi autoturisme de teren; 162 instalaţii de lansare a rachetelor antitanc portative generaţia II (semidirijate automat); 12 tunuri antiaeriene de 57 mm; 30 tunuri antiaeriene de calibru mic; 6 instalaţii de rachete A.A.; 120 de mitraliere antiaeriene cu 2 şi 4 ţevi calibru 14,5mm; 316 TAB-uri; 30 TABC."
So sorry, couldn't translate all of it...
Waiting your help in organise all this information on regiments, battalions and companies if it's possible...

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Jeroen
Posted: December 14, 2009 09:22 pm
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Nice done Andreas keep on the good work!

What about a survey of units and orbat as it was december 1989?
I heared in 1990 from air force personel the a helikopter unit in Transsylvania (at Caransebes, IAR316/330?) was alarmed and armed (with rockets and machine gun ammo) to assist in supressing the people in Timisoara, possibly this did not happen because certain airforce officers influenced others not to do so, has anyone heared about it?
What happened in Oradea anyway in 1989, how many were killed?

Jeroen
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21 inf
Posted: December 15, 2009 06:58 pm
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In 1989 in Oradea was killed by friendly fire only one sentry, at the Oradea airport.

About the OOB of 11th Division's units from Oradea i have a book named Stare de veghe, with the history and OOB of the unit from begining to late 1990's. Maybe if I'll have time I'll search it and post here info if you guys want it.

I was volunteer for military service back in year 2000 for compulsory military service and I was sent to 21st Traian Mosoiu motomechanised infantry batalion from Oradea, wich used to belong to 11th mechanised Division Carei. Today, 21st Traian Mosoiu batalion is disbanded, for good.

Col. Bartos was comander of my batalion before I went to the army, when the batalion was actually a regiment. I met him a couple of years ago, personally and have a small chat.
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