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cainele_franctiror
Posted: April 01, 2009 05:42 pm
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QUOTE (Soim @ April 01, 2009 02:34 pm)
Tell us more about ground to air units!!!!!! :o

My book with general Mircea Mocanu, Comander in Chief of the Romanian Air Defense (Comandamentul Apararii Antiaeriene a Teritoriului - CAAT) in 1975-1990 is ready, but yesterday, Mr. Mocanu said he has more to say. A very nice surprise, so I hope, anyway, it will be ready in mai. There are many, many things new about ground to air units, radiolocation units etc. And, I just started two weeks ago another book with another general, former commander of the Romanian Air Force. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Dénes
Posted: April 01, 2009 06:57 pm
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Are these interview-books supported by documentary evidences?

Gen. Dénes
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ANDREAS
Posted: April 01, 2009 11:12 pm
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Hallo everybody,
As I found a big interest in aircraft and air-defence, I can post this:
The Air Defence of the Territory Command -

16th Air Defence Division "Siret" -Ploiesti -
-46th Radiolocation Brigade -Ploiesti,
-1st AA Rocket Brigade -Bucharest -18th and 19th SAM Regiments
-48th Mobile SAM Regiment -Chitila
-1st AA Gun Regiment -Bucharest
-2nd Mixt AA Artillery Brigade -Ploiesti
-4th SAM Regiment -Ploiesti
-11th SAM Regiment -Brasov
-2 AA Gun Regiments - could be part of the AA Artillery Brigade Ploiesti ??
-6th Mixt AA Artillery Brigade -Ramnicu Sarat -?? 63 and ?? 65 AA Gun Regiments
-13th ?? SAM Regiment -Bacau
-52nd Mobile SAM Regiment -Braila
-53rd SAM Regiment -Medgidia
-14th Mixt AA Artillery Regiment -Fetesti -Cernavoda
-137th AA Gun Regiment -Tuzla

34th Air Defence Division "Mures" -Timisoara -
-41th Radiolocation Brigade -Cluj Napoca,
-3rd ?? AA Rocket Brigade -Timisoara -16th and 17th SAM Regiments
-4th Mixt AA Artillery Brigade -Targu Jiu -40 ?? and 373 ?? AA Gun Regiments
-12th SAM Regiment -??
-51th Mobile SAM Regiment -Craiova
-5th Mixt AA Artillery Brigade -Cluj Napoca -?? 146 and ?? 149 AA Gun Regiments
-15th ?? SAM Regiment -Medias
-50th Mobile SAM Regiment -Cluj Napoca

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MMM
Posted: April 10, 2009 09:36 am
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But what was the period? Because one can see the fact that AA-Defense should have been placed on the more "threatened" borders; whereas we, being surrounded only by "friendly socialist states", shuoldn't have reinforced a particular part of the territory - maybe the one with Yugoslavia... :P
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Jeroen
Posted: April 13, 2009 11:16 am
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QUOTE (PanzerKing @ November 27, 2003 04:33 pm)
But was there a serious threat from Bulgaria & Hungary or was it just paranoia?


Panzerking, mabadesc and others!

About any serious threat let us look at some numbers and facts.

In 1990 Bulgaria and Hungary had respectively:
totals
2240 1720 ArmouredPersonelcarriers 3960
2145 1345 Combat tanks 3490
1047 2116 artillery pieces 3163
243 110 combat aircraft 353

While Romania had 3102 APC 2851 tanks 3789 artillery and 505 combat aircraft.
So Bulgaria and Hungary together had roughly 850 APC more, and 640 tanks while Romania outnumbered in guns and close air support aircraft about 625 and 150!
Only Bulgaria and Hungaries 83 Mi24 combat helikopters differed from the IAR316s in fire power and air assault capabilities.

So though these numbers do not reflect real power or deployability or maintenance it would be a laugh to take any real threat of either Bulgaria or Hungary in 1990 to attack its neighbour, as some tactics preveal an outnumbering of three to one for the attacking party!?

Still I think these numbers speak out for themselves. Who does still think a real threat was existing in 1990? Except from Soviet forces of course who had the power, but not the political will, it was rather unlikely for Gorbachov to deploy his forces inside non (SSSR) Union- members at that time openly, apart from in Lithuania, Moldavia, Baku, Georgia and so further, at that time.
Who held different opinion, I am interested in his arguments!

Facts are that Bulgarian leader Todor Zhivkov had proposed january 27, 1989 to the state council and council of ministers to rduce the 1989 budget by 12%, the army by 10,000 men by end of 1990. armament reductions of 200 tanks, 200 artillery systems, 20 combat aircraft and 5 naval units. (source radio Sofia)

While Hungary was more worried about the large force (60.000) of soviet forces (Southern Group) inside its borders, and called for its withdrawal in january 1990!
Those numbers were not (anymore) in Bulgaria or Romania fortunately!

About paranoia we should not underestimate it, it reflects interesting thoughts and wareness among the people at times about their society and situation.
Of course these numbers where not out on the streets those days, but as all three parties provided them freely at will in 1990, as agreed in 1989.

Jeroen
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Jeroen
Posted: April 13, 2009 11:51 am
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QUOTE (Radub @ March 31, 2009 11:54 am)
QUOTE (horia @ March 31, 2009 10:28 am)

IAR-99?

I think that between 1988 (when the first IAR99 was put into operational use) and 1990 when Communism "officially" ended, the total inventory was 18 IAR99s.
Radu


In fact they had about 4 IAR99 operating than along factory aircraft

In summer 1990 as a foreigner I was totally surprised to see some IAR99 at Craiova including the protype S-001 while flying domestically with Tarom An24!
The Soim was not yet internationally known at that time in the west.

prototype S-001 was presented to Romanian public june 23 at Bacau.
It made is last flight from Craiova june 25 but I did not know that then.

Also I will never forget taxing out to the west end of the runway 09, when the An24 was put on hold because of an aproaching aircraft. While looking through a passenger window I was expecting some IAR93 or Mig21(UM), but was totaly surprised when a beatifull MiG-15UTI was perfoming a touch and go!

Craiova
at least in 1991 they flew some MiG21(UM) also with 67th Regt! As I saw myself.
Probably replacing the Mig15UTIs?

I found my old spotterlogs, it might be of interest to some forummembers
Remember the good old days
Afternoon thirsday 23 june 1991!
13.00local time landing some unknown MiG21UM, then landing an IAR93
13.42L practise approach MiG-21UM 172
13.52L landing MiG-21UM 172
13.54L landing IAR93DC 006
than times not known landings different IAR93(DC),IAR99: 225,702,706,707,109,181,119,227, 007(DC),223
14.31L aerobatics MIG-21UM 176 (training for Baneasa on sunday)
15.34L approach IAR93DC 006
15.54L landing IAR93DC 006
(706 had a landing accident on sunday at Baneasa)

Tuesday 25 june afternoon
after13.35L landing IAR93DC 007
landings IAR93 181,109,118,119,227,229
landings MiG21M 804,805
landings MiG-1UM 176,6905

Does any forummember visit aviation day or families days at baza in those days and also has logs or pics from that time?
Maybe you could share it with us.

Can some one produce a better list or orbat for Aviatia Militare 1985-1989 and 1990-1995 when CFE came into force???

Jeroen

This post has been edited by Jeroen on April 17, 2009 10:46 am
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ANDREAS
Posted: April 14, 2009 09:06 pm
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Hallo Jeroen,
My opinion regarding the numbers of tanks, apc/ifv, artillery pieces and aircraft is that in reality it means not much! For a war, speaking about that, this numbers doesn't matter in comparison with the combat-readiness of the units, their training and command, the communications and their weapon status! And certainly some other factors which I don't mention anymore! It's not the place to serious analyse all that and not even the romanian army weapons but I wish to give just few exemples :
-our amy had in 1990 only 127 (maybe less??) ifv-type of vehicles, speaking about MLI-84, but the hungarians over 500 BMP-1/M/P combat infantry machines,
-our army had no more than 6 SP howitzers soviet-produced 2S1 122mm., and since 1991 no romanian-made Obuzierul autopropulsat model 1989, a copy of the soviet 2S1; hungary had 152 self-propelled howitzers 2S1 122mm. and 12 s.p. howitzers 2S3 152mm. (info from newspaper Armata Romaniei -june 1992 -taking about the hungarian army in 1991).
-our amy had only 30 tanks T-72 (one tank battalion) and the hungarian army 139 tanks T-72/A/M (three tank battalions and a reserve)
The exemples can continue...
But that doesn't mean, for no reason, that somebody in Hungary (thinking about 1989-1993 period), I mean a normal reasoning person, could imagine a war with Romania, or that a general, superior officer or anybody from the hungarian army think about something like that! Alone, without the soviet army -no, no way! Maybe some nationalist or extremists could think about that in december 1989, but the army at least (and a bulk of the society) could never take a serious step in this direction!
But, for game reasons only, the romanian army could not be seen as superiour to the hungarian one!
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Jeroen
Posted: April 15, 2009 07:14 am
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Indeed Andreas

We have to take quality of weapon systems, logiistic, level of traing etcetera also to consider of importance for such analysis.
Not to forget geographic situation, Roumania has more mountains than Hungary.
As Slovenian territorial forces with handheld antitank weapons against JRA armoured colums in accidented terrain made all to clear. JRA was already inside, did not need to invade, only to proceed to borders to held some terrain, it could not do that.

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Jeroen
Posted: April 15, 2009 03:17 pm
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QUOTE (cainele_franctiror @ April 01, 2009 05:42 pm)
QUOTE (Soim @ April 01, 2009 02:34 pm)
Tell us more about ground to air units!!!!!! 


My book with general Mircea Mocanu, Comander in Chief of the Romanian Air Defense (Comandamentul Apararii Antiaeriene a Teritoriului - CAAT) in 1975-1990 is ready, but yesterday, Mr. Mocanu said he has more to say. A very nice surprise, so I hope, anyway, it will be ready in mai. There are many, many things new about ground to air units, radiolocation units etc.

And, I just started two weeks ago another book with another general, former commander of the Romanian Air Force.


Gratulations with all these fine initiatives Cainile franctiror!

Did you publish more books in the past before?
What Editura and isbn and titles? What will be the titles of your two new books?
I am waiting for them, hope to read one in may!

Greetings
Jeroen
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MMM
Posted: April 16, 2009 02:31 pm
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QUOTE
As Slovenian territorial forces with handheld antitank weapons against JRA armoured colums in accidented terrain made all to clear. JRA was already inside, did not need to invade, only to proceed to borders to held some terrain, it could not do that.

What IS JRA, then? I found no refference to that...
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Dénes
Posted: April 16, 2009 02:50 pm
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It's the Yugoslav army.

Gen. Dénes
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Jeroen
Posted: April 16, 2009 03:44 pm
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Indeed

Maybe better was Jugoslavenska Narodna Armija (JNA), or Jugoslavenska Vojska or Vojska Jugoslavije, but as this forum language of choice is English I prefer Jugoslavian (Republic) Army.
By the way what MMM stands for?

Jeroen
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ANDREAS
Posted: April 16, 2009 10:48 pm
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Hallo Jeroen,
I agree that the geographic situation is very, very important, and in case of a conflict Roumania has a big advantage from this. But the exemple you gave with Slovenia is not the best we can find -actually the JNA intended to frighten the Slovenes like they did in Kosovo in 1981 or 1989 not to fight them, and they were surprised by the serious reaction of the paramilitary units from there. And they were told -speaking about JNA troops that the austrian troops crossed the border and they need to secure it! This I read in the newspaper Armata Romaniei from july 1991 in a interwiew with the jugoslav military attache in Bucharest! And actually the JNA had a reserve plan to serious fight the Slovenes and annihilate them in a big scale operation but the events in Croatia stopped them!
The better exemple is Croatia I think, were JNA armour suffer big loss in men and equipment in face of croatian lightly-equipped troops!
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MMM
Posted: April 17, 2009 06:50 am
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Well, nothing else than my own name: Mihai Modrea-Marin. One can also see that at the "Present yourself" section of the forum: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=791&st=45
You might want to give it a try, as well ;)
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Jeroen
Posted: April 18, 2009 08:43 pm
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QUOTE (Jeroen @ April 13, 2009 11:51 am)
Craiova
at least in 1991 they flew some MiG21(M/UM) also with 67th Regt! As I saw myself.
Probably replacing the Mig15UTIs?

I found my old spotterlogs, it might be of interest to some forummembers
Remember the good old days
Afternoon thirsday 23 june 1991!
13.00local time landing some unknown MiG21UM, then landing an IAR93
13.42L practise approach MiG-21UM 172
13.52L landing MiG-21UM 172
13.54L landing IAR93DC 006
than times not known landings different IAR93(DC),IAR99: 225,702,706,707,109,181,119,227, 007(DC),223
14.31L aerobatics MIG-21UM 176 (training for Baneasa on sunday)
15.34L approach IAR93DC 006
15.54L landing IAR93DC 006
(706 had a landing accident on sunday at Baneasa)

Tuesday 25 june afternoon
after13.35L landing IAR93DC 007
landings IAR93 181,109,118,119,227,229
landings MiG21M 804,805
landings MiG-1UM 176,6905

Does any forummember visit aviation day or families days at baza in those days and also has logs or pics from that time?
Maybe you could share it with us.

Can some one produce a better list or orbat for Aviatia Militare 1985-1989 and 1990-1995 when CFE came into force???

Jeroen

Nobody who logged aircraft in past, or can improve the orbat?

Jeroen
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