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> First Luftwaffe units in Romania
Jeroen
Posted: May 28, 2009 03:04 pm
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Even before operation Marita and directive nr 25 German troops and air force units enterred Romania. Which luftwaffe units (staffel) were first, and when and where did they arrive first? The "Luftwaffe Homepage" gives a lot of information but is conflicting with other sources.
For example D. Grecu, Romanian Postal History bulletin nr 27 december 1998 on air force unit post codes gives october7th 1940 as the first German units to arrive. By mid november 1940 present were 6 fighter units and 2 recce units? Other sources give only 4 fighter units and 2 recce units for mid November.
But Michael Holm gives January 26th 1940 as the date for JG27 at Banease, and III gruppe/JG52 at Pipera and Mizil in October of that year?
From Grecu's article, he himself using dates fom Holm's site, it is not clear which and where these first 6-8 staffel were exactly deployed, especially the recce planes?
Grecu and others identify Arad,Deva and Turnu Severin as localities for airfields with Luftwaffe, while Deta is given by Holm and the Wehrmacht Lexicon site.
Where these all (reserve) airfields, or with Romanian units actually along the Germans, or also newly constructed Einsatzhafen or feldflugplatze?

Later deployements are better documented with SG77 (S. I. and III.)arriving 31.3.41 at Arad, the lexicon gives JG77 at Arad also, probably a mistake, should be JG27 but that unit partly at Banease (III.?) or at Deta near Arad? While Deta is south of Timisoara and not north like Arad? And were al these aircraft really concentrated at one single airfield near Arad, probably rather unwise, or dispersed on satelite fields?

Total number for march 27th 1941 is given at 135 aircraft (with 355 in Bulgarija) and numbers rising with (additional?) 600 in ten days in april 1941!?
So what was the actual situation in the 1940-may 1941 periode? June 1941 deployements should be covered not here but in eastern Front section of the forum, I asume?

This number of german troops, Germans told the Romanians they had 500,000 and suggested their soviet allies they ad 680,000 while in fact Greece intell estimates of 180,000 being more accurate, challenged the Britis and RAF to attack them. Fortunately in February 1941 bad weather and lack of bombers with enough range prevented Churchill from doing so, later Greece opposed any air raids from its soil.
sources PWT Middle East I Hist. ( B ) 2 no 57 p 33 (28 febr41) and no 88 p47 (6march41)

This post has been edited by Jeroen on May 28, 2009 03:14 pm
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MMM
Posted: May 28, 2009 03:39 pm
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QUOTE
January 26th 1940
????
This is outrageous! There is no way for this to happen! In october 1940 - that was the moment of the first units arriving in Romania!
Here is a quote from the Romanian Archives (which I'm using for my PHD work):
"În aceeaşi zi, 25 octombrie, efectivele Misiunii Militare Aeronautice Germane se prezentau astfel: 147 de ofiţeri, 9 funcţionari militari, 3657 subofiţeri şi trupă, 998 de maşini şi autovehicule, 190 de motociclete şi 15 avioane (dintr-un total aşteptat de 55, în primă fază; dintre acestea, 27 erau de tipul Messerschmitt Bf 109, 24 Heinkel 126 şi 4 Heinkel 108).
La 2 noiembrie, 8 zile mai târziu, cifrele erau următoarele la Misiunea Militară „terestră”: 505 ofiţeri şi funcţionari în rang de ofiţeri, 7979 de subofiţeri şi trupă, 1685 de autovehicule mari, 613 motociclete şi 51 de cai, din acelaşi total estimat mai sus. La Misiunea Aeronautică sosiseră toţi cei 171 de ofiţeri, în loc de 4.094 subofiţeri şi trupă sosiseră 4.196, 1101 autovehicule şi 805 motociclete (dintr-un total necomunicat) şi 29 de avioane din 81."
Unfortunately, I haven't found what units were there - yet!
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Radub
Posted: May 28, 2009 06:06 pm
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QUOTE (MMM @ May 28, 2009 03:39 pm)
Heinkel 126
Heinkel 108

FYI, the "126" was a Henschel type and the "108" was a Messerschmitt type.
Radu
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Radub
Posted: May 28, 2009 06:11 pm
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QUOTE (Jeroen @ May 28, 2009 03:04 pm)

But Michael Holm gives January 26th 1940 as the date for JG27 at Banease,

That may be a typo - he probably meant 1941 rather than 1940. See page 42 of this: http://books.google.ie/books?id=MwOcPfei6-...summary_s&cad=0
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Jeroen
Posted: May 28, 2009 06:55 pm
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From units (staffel) that arrived after mid November I did find 8th staffel from JG52, that was ordered to fly to Pipera at 23 November. At unknown date also the rest of the III. gr arrived there.
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Jeroen
Posted: May 28, 2009 08:16 pm
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QUOTE (Radub @ May 28, 2009 06:11 pm)
That may be a typo - he probably meant 1941 rather than 1940. See page 42 of this: http://books.google.ie/books?id=MwOcPfei6-...summary_s&cad=0
Radu

Thanks Radu

page 42 will not open up with my limited access at books.google

John Weals Jagdgeschwader 54 Grunherz gives 4th staffel and III Gr. first at Arad and then at Data (sic!) a typo, must be Deta at page 39, but no exact dates...
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Jeroen
Posted: May 28, 2009 08:36 pm
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QUOTE (Jeroen @ May 28, 2009 03:04 pm)
Other sources give only 4 fighter units and 2 recce units for mid November.

Arad, the lexicon gives JG77 at Arad also, probably a mistake, should be JG27 but that unit partly at Banease (III.?) or at Deta near Arad?

Source for the first Germany and WW2, Vol III Mediterranean, SE Europe, North Afrika,1939-1941, G schreiber, W Deist

Second remark seems the other way around, conflicting sources are the axishistory where Ron Klages 5th april Orbat gives Fliegerfuhrer with JG 27 at Deta, while Wehrmact lexicon gives JG77 at Arad instead. What is correct?
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Jeroen
Posted: May 29, 2009 09:39 am
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QUOTE (MMM @ May 28, 2009 03:39 pm)
In october 1940 - that was the moment of the first units arriving in Romania!

Why did those units and the military mission arrive in the first place?

Some source says they even preceeded the Italian late October attack on Greece from Albanian soil. Did Hitler anticipate that move? Also it is claimed that the other way around, Hitler moving his troops into Romania further into the Balkan irritated and provoked Mussolini in moving east in response? Why did Mussolini attack Greece? And is it true German troops came at a Romanian request? With what purpose, only to train and act as instructors, or for air defence of the oil industry?

In response to Italies attack october 28th, Churchill ordered the RAF and RN to the Greek mainland, Blenheim and Wellington bombers starting to arrive at Elefsina and Tatoi airfields from November 3th. That influenced Hitler the next day to order further strenghtening of the mission in Romania. In fact the presence of british bombers was probably an if not the most important factor to start planning invasion of parts or all of mainland Greece.
November 12th Hitler ordered further strenghtening of the Mission, which started frustrating Molotov. Though Hitler must have been satisfied with the British bombers not attacking the Rumanian oil installations, they still made their point November 14th when Wellington bombers from Greek soil started night bombing oil installations on Italian mainland!
In fact at least one RAF operated twin engine Lockheed was flown into Rumanian airspace from Greece for recce photograpy, in december, was it ever detected or even intercepted by Germans or Rumanians?
Then december 13th came the directive for operation Marita.

So did Italy by its move into Greece indirectly hamper Germanies plans with the USSR?

This post has been edited by Jeroen on May 29, 2009 10:19 am
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MMM
Posted: May 29, 2009 01:35 pm
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To many of the questions you might find plausible (:P) answers on this very forum. Give it a search, as I already had written some of my oppinions!
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Victor
Posted: May 30, 2009 01:37 am
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QUOTE (Jeroen)
Why did those units and the military mission arrive in the first place?

The German Military Mission came officially to train several units of the Romanian Army, but also had the secret task to strengthen the defense of the Ploiesti oil fields.
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Jeroen
Posted: May 30, 2009 04:43 am
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Thanks Victor

Did you read any documents in archives stating such?
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Victor
Posted: May 30, 2009 06:04 am
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QUOTE (Jeroen @ May 30, 2009 06:43 am)
Thanks Victor

Did you read any documents in archives stating such?

Andreas Hillgruber quotes such a document in his book (page 206 in the latest Romanian print). It's a memo from the OKW and the German Foreign Office dividing the tasks of the German Military Mission and those of the German military attache in Bucharest.

The German Military Mission was supposed to:
a. defend the oil region from the attack of a third power or from destruction [probably by the Romanians themselves or by sabotage]
b. raise the Romanian military to a level of readiness that will make it capable of fulfilling some tasks, according to a plan drafted by the German command and according to German interest
c. in case of a war imposed by the Soviet Union, to prepare the conditions of mobilization of the German and Romanian forces on Romanian soil.

The Heer sent two divisions for training of Romanian ground units:
- the 13th Motorized Infantry Division, designated as Lehrstab R I
- the 16th Panzer Division, designated as Lehrstab II

Regarding the Luftwaffe mission in particular, several pages later in the same book (p. 212-213), its objectives are written down"
1. Organize and lead the passive and active air defence of the oil region
2. Organize ground support units for the Luftwaffe units that would take part in Barbarossa from Romanian airfields
3. Train and reorganize the Romanian air force according to German war experience
4. Take over command of the ground support formations of one of the Romanian air regions [probably referring to the air region of Moldova]
5. Create an atmosphere of friendship between the two air forces in order to prepare the future military cooperation against the Soviet Union
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cnflyboy2000
Posted: June 11, 2009 05:37 pm
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QUOTE (Jeroen @ May 29, 2009 02:39 pm)
QUOTE (MMM @ May 28, 2009 03:39 pm)
In october 1940 - that was the moment of the first units arriving in Romania!

Why did those units and the military mission arrive in the first place?



So did Italy by its move into Greece indirectly hamper Germanies plans with the USSR?

I think that's the predominant opinion; the German conquest of Greece was forced by the the Italian fiasco, and cost the Germans dearly.

In the words of noted foreighn correspondent C.L Sulzberger of The New York Times: "Had Hitler not run up a swastika on the Acropolis, he might have succeeded in draping it upon the Kremlin".

Of course, on the other hand, the defense cost the Brits big time, diverting them from Africa, and it cost the Greeks horribly, (100.000 dead from starvation and disease in Athens alone) as the Nazis raped their country.
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Jeroen
Posted: June 11, 2009 07:21 pm
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Thanks Victor and cnflyboy!
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MMM
Posted: June 16, 2009 05:07 pm
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QUOTE
C.L Sulzberger of The New York Times: "Had Hitler not run up a swastika on the Acropolis, he might have succeeded in draping it upon the Kremlin"

Where did you find that? Funny enough, it's my oppinion as well...
I've noted from some of his writings (oct-nov 1940) that he did have some close infos on Eastern Europe... (found in the archives at the "foreign newspapers" section about the Antonescu regime).
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