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> Panzer Forces in Iasi-Chisinau Operation aug. 1944, Could they stop the Soviets?
Victor
Posted: August 10, 2009 06:01 am
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Andreas, I already stated my sources in previous posts: original documents from the archives.

I only gave a friendly warning not to take everything Ion S. Dumitru wrote for granted. However, you and MMM are free to believe whatever you want regarding this subject.

Regarding what the source is stating, I do not have the time now to write the story down. Maybe during the autumn.
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Agarici
Posted: August 10, 2009 12:46 pm
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According to Soviet sources, used by Gh. Buzatu, the German-Romanian forces had 404 tanks (probably the figure included the self-propelled guns) on Iaşi-Chişinău front around 20 August 1944.
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ANDREAS
Posted: August 10, 2009 08:58 pm
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Answers : first to Victor :
Ok, I remember now you speak about archives and it's wonderful you have access to such a valuable source...
Hope you don't believe I was unpolite to you...
But as a person of the general public who didn't have access to such sources like you did... is normal to take Ion S Dumitru as a base for discussions...
Don't you agree?
to Agarici :
Thanks for you're arrival in this topic... and your contribution as well...
but do not forget the independent StuG batallions like the
- 325. attached to VI. Rumanian Corps, 4. Rumanian Armee, Armee-Gruppe “Woehler”,
- 825. assisted by 79.Infanterie-Division and 370.Infanterie-Division, were scheduled to spearhead the breakout of IV. Armeekorps which was trapped deep within Rumanian territory by the Soviet August offensive. The escape attempt failed and IV. Armeekorps was destroyed.
- 905. Not much is known of the fate of this unit after the Soviet Second Ukrainian Front thrust down from the north directly into Armee-Gruppe “Woehler”. Like many of the other StuG.Brigades, attached to Heeresgruppe Sudukraine, it was probably destroyed as a cohesive fighting unit at the time.
- 911. The Soviet Armee’s Third Ukrainian Front attacked due west from their positions, south of Tiraspol, shattering the 6. Armee and completely destroying Stu.Gesch.Bde.911 on this “Black Sunday” for the German Heer
and surely others...
Source : http://www.axishistory.com

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ANDREAS
Posted: August 11, 2009 06:37 pm
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In 19.08.1944 the mobile forces available for the ArmeeGruppe SudUkraine were :
- 1st Romanian Armored Division “România Mare”: 48 T 4 /Pz. IV G/H + 21 TAS /StuG III G + 10 (?) TACAM R-60
- 13th German Panzer Division: around 40 (could be less if the Kessel Detachment had 5 Pz. IV H) Pz. IV H/J + around 20 StuG III G or StuG IV
- 10th German Panzergrenadier Division: 43 Stug III G + 3 Pz III M (N?)
- The Kessel Detachment - elements of the 20th German Panzer Divison: one tank company -only 5 operative Pz. IV H
- The Braun Detachment: 56 machines (30 Pz. IV H and 21 StuG III G from Romanian 8 Mechanised Cavalry Division) and other 5 Panzers or Sturmgeschuetze
- 8th Romanian Mechanised Cavalry division : 30 Pz. IV H and 21 StuG III G until 22 august 1944
- some of the following units : 228, 236, 239, 243, 278, 286, 325, 905, 911 Sturmgeschütz-Abteilungen /Brigaden each with 19 to 31 StuG III G or StuG IV and maybe some command tanks
This could be for now a better image of the german-romanian mobile forces who faced the soviet armies in the Iasi-Chisinau Offensive...
Thanks again for the suggestion, Agarici.
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Agarici
Posted: September 06, 2009 03:17 am
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ August 11, 2009 06:37 pm)
In 19.08.1944 the mobile forces available for the ArmeeGruppe SudUkraine were :
- 1st Romanian Armored Division “România Mare”: 48 T 4 /Pz. IV G/H + 21 TAS /StuG III G + 10 (?) TACAM R-60
- 13th German Panzer Division: around 40 (could be less if the Kessel Detachment had 5 Pz. IV H) Pz. IV H/J + around 20 StuG III G or StuG IV
- 10th German Panzergrenadier Division: 43 Stug III G + 3 Pz III M (N?)
- The Kessel Detachment - elements of the 20th German Panzer Divison: one tank company -only 5 operative Pz. IV H
- The Braun Detachment: 56 machines (30 Pz. IV H and 21 StuG III G from Romanian 8 Mechanised Cavalry Division) and other 5 Panzers or Sturmgeschuetze 
- 8th Romanian Mechanised Cavalry division : 30 Pz. IV H and 21 StuG III G until 22 august 1944
- some of the following units : 228, 236, 239, 243, 278, 286, 325, 905, 911 Sturmgeschütz-Abteilungen /Brigaden each with 19 to 31 StuG III G or StuG IV and maybe some command tanks
This could be for now a better image of the german-romanian mobile forces who faced the soviet armies in the Iasi-Chisinau Offensive...
Thanks again for the suggestion, Agarici.


You are welcomed!

So, that gives us a rough total of 126 tanks and about 345 assault/self-propelled guns = 471, close enough to the figure given by Gh. Buzatu using Soviet sources (405-415 machines, not mentioning if including or not the SPGs).

My question which I guess still stands is where were the rest of Romanian tanks, assault guns (100 + each) and even SPG while the country defense was in danger to be overwhelmed and every single gun could have been needed? We learned from this site that on the event of the Soviet Spring-Summer offensive ARR mobilized all its resources (also having to deal with the Allied bombings), what was going on with the Romanian amour?
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Victor
Posted: September 07, 2009 02:41 pm
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There weren't that many battle ready AFVs behind the front. Let's try to evaluate the situation.

The 8th Cavalry Division, the other major unit equipped with modern equipment, was still training to use its tanks and assault guns and was not ready to be sent to the front line or at least this what the General Staff thought. I am not very familiar with the effort to turn this unit into an armored one so I can only speculate on how battle ready they were and if keeping them in reserve was a good idea or not. IMO it would have made more sense to take at least a part of the personnel of the 2nd Tank Regiment and assign them to this new unit. They had some armored warfare experience and probably could have been trained quicker. In fact adequately trained personnel was probably the main "plague" of the Romanian armored formations during the war. I would venture to say more important that equipment shortages.

The other owner of relatively large numbers of modern AFVs was the CIMM (the Mechanzied Training Center) or 1st Armored-training Division. As we have already seen, 15 T-4s were reassigned to it from the 1st Armored Division in August 1944, prior to the Soviet offensive. In my notes I found the more detailed follow up of the order: 12 T-4s and 2 T-4s with "short barrel", 2 T.3s and 5 TAs were transferred to CIMM.

Now let's take them one type at the time. The R-2s, of which around 20 served in the first fights against the Soviets in Moldova in early 1944 (this is an unknown chapter that requires thorougher research), were mostly being prepared to be transformed into TACAM R-2s in August or lying unserviceable in Bucharest.

The R-35s were in better shape and on 5 August, the 2nd Tank Regiment shipped the 1st And 2nd R-35 Companies to the front to act as armor support at the disposal of the 3rd and 4th Army commands. Each company had 10 R-35 tanks. This leaves another 20-30 serviceable R-35s unused. A part of them were probably on the waiting list for the conversion to the 45 mm gun, but there was enough materiel for a third company IMO

The T-38s were mostly unserviceable in mid-July (only 5 serviceable) and it took some time to bring up the numbers. It is arguable if one company could have been organized or not in August.

The TACAM T-60s were all being used. The 1st Armored Division had 10 and the 2nd Tank Regiment had 18 (16 serviceable in mid-July) was in the process of organizing two batteries. I know for sure that at least was ready: the 61st TACAM Battery, which had 9 TACAM T-60s.

The TACAM R-2s however don't seem to have been ready for the fight in August. In late June, 10 TACAM R-2s of the 1st Tank Regiment were training to become operational at Dadilov, under the command of cpt. Becheru. I do not know however if it was on the front in August.

The FT-17s were out of the question for operational use on the front in Moldova.

In conclusion, with the exception of the transfer order from the 1st Armored Division to the CIMM and the doubt on the training process of the 8th Cavalry Division, we can't say that much more could have been done.

Hope this helps
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PanzerKing
Posted: September 22, 2009 06:59 pm
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Here is some information I found about 1st Armored Division.

Some of the designations seem to be incorrect. He said Romanians called the Panzer III & IV the R-3 & R-4, not the T-3 & T-4 like everyone else.

Also, he says the Panzer IV had maximum armor of 58mm, not 80mm like in reality! That's a very obvious mistake.

Other than that, the information seems to be correct. What do you guys think about the narrative? Is it correct?

Here's the link:

http://www.lostbattalion.com/t-ff_1RPZ.aspx
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PanzerKing
Posted: September 22, 2009 07:03 pm
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ August 11, 2009 06:37 pm)
In 19.08.1944 the mobile forces available for the ArmeeGruppe SudUkraine were :
- 1st Romanian Armored Division “România Mare”: 48 T 4 /Pz. IV G/H + 21 TAS /StuG III G + 10 (?) TACAM R-60
- 13th German Panzer Division: around 40 (could be less if the Kessel Detachment had 5 Pz. IV H) Pz. IV H/J + around 20 StuG III G or StuG IV
- 10th German Panzergrenadier Division: 43 Stug III G + 3 Pz III M (N?)
- The Kessel Detachment - elements of the 20th German Panzer Divison: one tank company -only 5 operative Pz. IV H
- The Braun Detachment: 56 machines (30 Pz. IV H and 21 StuG III G from Romanian 8 Mechanised Cavalry Division) and other 5 Panzers or Sturmgeschuetze
- 8th Romanian Mechanised Cavalry division : 30 Pz. IV H and 21 StuG III G until 22 august 1944
- some of the following units : 228, 236, 239, 243, 278, 286, 325, 905, 911 Sturmgeschütz-Abteilungen /Brigaden each with 19 to 31 StuG III G or StuG IV and maybe some command tanks
This could be for now a better image of the german-romanian mobile forces who faced the soviet armies in the Iasi-Chisinau Offensive...
Thanks again for the suggestion, Agarici.

Wow, not a tank in site armored with a gun larger than L/48 75mm.
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Victor
Posted: September 23, 2009 03:51 pm
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No, the designation was T.3 and T.4
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PanzerKing
Posted: September 25, 2009 02:31 am
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QUOTE (Victor @ September 23, 2009 03:51 pm)
No, the designation was T.3 and T.4

That's what I thought.
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ANDREAS
Posted: August 22, 2011 09:55 am
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According to this source http://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/thread.p...htuser=0&page=5 the 13.Panzer Division had in 01.08.1944 37 PzIV tanks (36 battle ready G/H or J type probably), 80 armoured vehicles (75 battle ready Armoured Personnel Carriers, Reconnaissance, a.o.), 17 SPG (probably MarderII or III), 7 Hummels 150mm SPH and 16 Wespe 105mm SPH. It can't be excluded that following the withdrawal of numerous tanks and mechanized divisions from the romanian front in july-august 1944, the 13.Division was reinforced by delivery of new armored vehicles until 20.08.1944, reaching about 60-70 tanks (maybe?) in mid august 1944.
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Victor
Posted: October 17, 2011 02:51 pm
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ August 22, 2011 11:55 am)
It can't be excluded that following the withdrawal of numerous tanks and mechanized divisions from the romanian front in july-august 1944, the 13.Division was reinforced by delivery of new armored vehicles until 20.08.1944, reaching about 60-70 tanks (maybe?) in mid august 1944.

Please elaborate how did you arrive at that conclusion.
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Cantacuzino
Posted: September 18, 2012 08:05 am
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ANDREAS
Posted: September 19, 2012 07:39 pm
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Victor, I am so sorry I haven't read until now what you asked and that's why I didn't answer! My assumption is based on a mathematical calculation which starts from a situation published in the book Romanian Army in World War II -National Military Museum, Archive Section of the General Staff a.o. Meridiane Publishing, Bucuresti 1995, on page 93 -the table. As you can see the table indicates the Romanian and German formations present on the romanian front on 29.07.1944. The 2 M.U. Blindate germane (in fact Divisions) were as I know the 13. and the 20. Panzer Divisions (this one a battle group in fact). The german armored formations had 99 tanks as it is written there, so I wonder if the 13. Pz. D. had only 37 tanks (all Panzer IV) and the 20. Pz. D. only 2 tanks (1 Panzer III and 1 Panzer IV) where are the rest? 60 tanks missing is a big number! The numbers (for the 13. Pz. D. on 01.08.1944) are taken from the book Die 13. Panzer Division 1935-1945 by Leo Beckmann..., Dörfler Verlag GmbH, 2003 and from a ww2 german forum (for the 20 Pz. D.). I know for sure that the other mechanized german division from the romanian front the 10. Panzer Grenadier Division had only 3 Panzer III command tanks in august 1944.
It is interesting that in the book Luptele Wehrmachtului in Romania august -octombrie 1944 the tank number is bigger -155 tanks (78 romanian and 77 german) on the moldavian front in 01.08.1944.
Cantacuzino, thanks for the image I appreciate that you posted it!

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on September 19, 2012 07:46 pm
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Taz1
Posted: September 22, 2012 08:30 am
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A question .It is possible to now how many tank formtion manage to survive the soviet ofensive ? On internet we can find 2 diferent information for example one saying that 13 panzer division was totally destroed by the russians , 10 panzer grenadier division also and other surces that they manage to breakthrough the soviet encirclement. I now that 10 panzer grenadier divion manage to escape the encirclemet after heavy fighting and withdrew though Romania, elements of the division being able to cros the danube river in bulgaria others being captured by romanians near Calarasi. The fate of others kampfgroupe ?

Cantacuzino nice picture hope you will buy it :)
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