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> Panzer Forces in Iasi-Chisinau Operation aug. 1944, Could they stop the Soviets?
ANDREAS
Posted: April 16, 2009 10:07 pm
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Hallo Victor,
I really apreciate your contribution and thank you for the elucidation of the SS Totenkopf Division story! And also for the source -the Book - Klaus Schoenherr, Luptele Wehrmachtului in Romania- it's wonderful! And a request if possible -how could I command it? Do you know somebody who have it -at least for a print-?
Thanks again and best regards!
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Victor
Posted: April 17, 2009 06:21 am
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ANDREAS
Posted: July 21, 2009 07:20 pm
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Hallo everybody and thank you Victor,
I read the book Klaus Schoenherr, Luptele Wehrmachtului in Romania and found it very useful ... It helps a lot for understanding so much of the unclear decisions and actions...
And clearify the astonishing succes of the soviet offensive Iasi -Chisinau in mid august 1944... even if the germans manage to save a part of their forces ...a small part it's true.
On the other hand I appreciate the decent tone of the writer who recognise the true motive of the german disaster who were, like in Stalingrad defeat, other than simple betrayal of romanian allies...
Anyway, an interesting and useful book for everybody interested in WWII history.
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Florin
Posted: July 31, 2009 04:25 pm
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Just as a fact, near Iasi the Germans from Gross Deutchland had for the first time the chance to look into a JS-2 tank (Joseph Stalin-2). It was not for long, as a Soviet counterattack forced the Germans to abandon the recently captured Soviet tank (they had it for less than a day).

To their shock, the Germans realized that the new Joseph Stalin-2 was able to penetrate the frontal armor of a Tiger I.
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ANDREAS
Posted: August 02, 2009 10:51 am
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Hi Florin,
Yes you're right but only if you speak about the battle from mai 1944 in the Targu Frumos region... there's the place where the IS-2 heavy tanks first meet the german armor... Details can be read in Magazin Istoric nr.10(475) from october 2006.
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ANDREAS
Posted: August 06, 2009 09:48 pm
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As the main contributor of this page until now, I need to write the latest information I received...
In 20 august the 13. Panzer Division under the command of Generalleutnant Hans Tröger had only 40 tanks combat-ready, mostly Pz.-IV G and H, and a small number of StuG-III Gs. That makes our 1st Armored Division the better equipped unit of the moldo-bessarabian front in august 1944...
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MMM
Posted: August 07, 2009 07:57 am
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ August 06, 2009 09:48 pm)
In 20 august the 13. Panzer Division under the command of Generalleutnant Hans Tröger had only 40 tanks combat-ready, mostly Pz.-IV G and H, and a small number of StuG-III Gs. That makes our 1st Armored Division the better equipped unit of the moldo-bessarabian front in august 1944...

Except, maybe, the quality of services and of the tankmen... I doubt that the battle-forged German crews and maintenance and supply services were inferior to their Romanian counterparts!
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ANDREAS
Posted: August 07, 2009 03:59 pm
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Yes MMM, you're right...
But I only speak about equipment, I said nothing about training or fighting abilities...
Of course the german panzertruppen from 13th were superior to their romanian counterparts, and if anybody doubt that -please read the faith of the kampfgruppe of both 13th and 20th Pz.D. or the 10th PzGr.D. -they survived the fightings but were captured or by the romanians in the Baragan plains or in Bulgaria... few escaped in Transilvania but without the heavy weapons... Our Armored Division come apart in many detachements after the first day of heavy combat... the detachements fight apart one from another until the cease-fire of 23-24 august... and were never reunited again... only the russians tried to form a stronger armored detachement in 27-28 august, if I remember correctly...
That show something, I guess...
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Victor
Posted: August 08, 2009 09:24 am
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ August 07, 2009 05:59 pm)
Our Armored Division come apart in many detachements after the first day of heavy combat... the detachements fight apart one from another until the cease-fire of 23-24 august... and were never reunited again... only the russians tried to form a stronger armored detachement in 27-28 august, if I remember correctly...
That show something, I guess...

The Armored Division did not come apart during August 1944.
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MMM
Posted: August 08, 2009 10:42 am
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They also did not fight as a division or as a regiment, but rather as a number of companies... :(

This post has been edited by MMM on August 08, 2009 10:42 am
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Victor
Posted: August 08, 2009 12:08 pm
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QUOTE (MMM @ August 08, 2009 12:42 pm)
They also did not fight as a division or as a regiment, but rather as a number of companies...  :(

Sources please. I'm tired of personal opinions aired as historical truth.
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MMM
Posted: August 08, 2009 02:33 pm
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Ion S. Dumitru's book. Is that enough for now?
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Victor
Posted: August 09, 2009 07:13 am
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QUOTE (MMM @ August 08, 2009 04:33 pm)
Ion S. Dumitru's book. Is that enough for now?

It is common sense not to draw a conclusion on how the entire division acted based on the memoirs of one man who got lost from the bulk of his unit and wandered around the countryside. Although very entertaining, his memoirs should be taken with a grain of salt, especially since his claims are somewhat exaggerated in some aspects.

The 1st Armored Division acted as a pretty cohesive force under the given circumstances and delayed as much as it could the Soviet advance in its area, allowing the Romanian infantry to escape southwards. Contrary to what Ion Dumitru claims, general Korne was well enough in control of his unit, as the official documents clearly show.
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ANDREAS
Posted: August 09, 2009 08:08 am
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[QUOTE]
Hallo Victor,
I agree your opinion but, as you say, we speak on sources... Mine and MMM is well known... Ion S. Dumitru's book...
What's yours? And what exactly did that source say... about the armored force of the Division?
Because, I beg your pardon, if you speak about an armoured division who fight apart of his own tanks and SPG-s only with motorised infantry, artillery and services... even reunited in a strong formation...you can't call it an armoured division anymore...
Hope you agree that...

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Agarici
Posted: August 09, 2009 08:40 pm
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My suggestion would be to put all the numbers (and types) together in a list (the timeframe 20-23 August, Iaşi-Chisinău front). Perhaps Victor will help us with the promised complete figures concerning “România Mare” division, indicating also his sources. I’ll start by sorting out the number already discussed here, adding only the armored machines having at least a 75 mm gun, specifying also the types when known:

- 1 Romanian Armored Division “România Mare”: 48 (up to 65) T 4 (Pz. IV H and G) + 12 TAS/Stug III G (why so few) + 10 (?) TACAM R-60
- 13 German Panzer Division: 40 serviceable tanks + ? Stugs (small number)
- 10 German Panzergrenadier Division: 43 Stug III G + 3 Pz III M (N?)
- The Kessel Detachment - elements of the 20 German Panzer Divison: one tank company? (how many machines?)
- The Braun Detachment: 56 machines (?), some from Romanian 8 cavalry Division
- The Maj. Brautsch Detachment: ~ 10 Stugs
- Romanian 4th Army Armoured Detachment ? (source: www.worldwar2.ro, Weapons and equipment, TAS): how many machines?
- 8th Romanian Cavalry division: how many machines, if any?
+ other independent assault/self-propelled guns battalions/detachments (how many, with how many armored vehicles?)

So up until now, we have a provisional and incomplete total of 222 (minimal figure - including the estimates for the Braun Detachment) or 239 (maximal figure - counting 65 tanks for “România Mare”) tanks and self-propelled guns. I’d say the total number was obviously bigger than that, but I look forward for your additions.
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