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> Question about Germans capturing the Romanian Army
MMM
  Posted: March 28, 2009 09:48 am
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QUOTE (eternal_sin @ March 20, 2009 04:37 am)
He would have been captured much earlier in the war than 44/45.

Not really possible, as before 23.08.1944, we were allied with the Wehrmacht - hence no prisoners! It has to be a mistake...
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ANDREAS
Posted: April 03, 2009 10:15 pm
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About the photo again,
As I looked more carefully I am more and more convinced that the prisoners were taken in autumn 1944 for the following reasons:
-it looks like a massive group of soldiers, not few tens of battle-captured soldiers, who seems to be lightly guarded by a hungarian soldier
-the autumn-type uniforms /not winter-type/ of the prisoners and the fact that no snow seems to exist make me believe this was made in late 1944, when the fair-weather allow the hungarian soldier to have no overcoat.
-the cavalry romanian sergeant/or noncommissioned officer/ seems to have also autumn-tipe uniform and no cap.
What you think about that?
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Radub
Posted: April 04, 2009 09:09 am
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ April 03, 2009 10:15 pm)
About the photo again,
As I looked more carefully I am more and more convinced that the prisoners were taken in autumn 1944 for the following reasons:
-it looks like a massive group of soldiers, not few tens of battle-captured soldiers, who seems to be lightly guarded by a hungarian soldier
-the autumn-type uniforms /not winter-type/ of the prisoners and the fact that no snow seems to exist make me believe this was made in late 1944, when the fair-weather allow the hungarian soldier to have no overcoat.
-the cavalry romanian sergeant/or noncommissioned officer/ seems to have also autumn-tipe uniform and no cap.
What you think about that?

I do not know what you mean by "autumn" dress. The Romanian army had only two types of dress: "summer" and "winter". The "winter" dress was usually worn from around the end of September until roughly around Easter time. Apart from the thicker material, a feature of the "winter" dress was the trenchcoat. Those soldiers are wearing trenchcoats, therefore it is "winter" dress.
It is extremely likely that the Romanian troops fought the entire Western campaign from the 25th of October ("Liberation of Transylvania") until the 8th of May (VE Day) in "winter" dress.
Radu
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ANDREAS
Posted: April 04, 2009 08:29 pm
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Thanks Radub,
What I ment was only the missing of the cap, which can be seen by many photos of our troops on the Czechoslovakian front. So I believe this element can't actually help. But still no answers to the other elements I posted... What about the hungarian soldier guarding the prisoniers f.i.? No winter uniform for sure...
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Radub
Posted: April 04, 2009 10:31 pm
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Andreas, in as far as I can figure out, you are trying to clarify whether these troops were captured in Debrecen in 1944 or in Budapest in 1945 and you are using the type of uniform to pinpoint it in time. In my opinion, the type of uniform does not tell anything other that the soldiers were wearing treanchcoats, which is not a "surprise revelation". Trenchcoats were part of the "winter" dress which was issued in late October. It is very likely that the Romanian troops wore trenchcoats from the moment they crossed the border until they returned home, so the same trenchcoat was worn at any time between late autumn 1944 and spring 1945, whether they were in Debrecen, Budapest, Vienna or Bucharest.

To return to the original question. The original poster said that his grandfather was possibly first captured by the Russians then he was captured by the Germans, marched to Germany and then released by the Americans. All of this possibly happened before 1944. I was thinking, is it possible that his grandfather was a member of the Tudor Vladimirescu Division?

Radu
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21 inf
Posted: April 05, 2009 05:08 am
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There it is a posibility that the man was sent from Romania to Germany before 1944 for forced labor and lately drafted in german army.
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Victor
Posted: April 05, 2009 06:09 am
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QUOTE (Radub @ April 05, 2009 12:31 am)
To return to the original question. The original poster said that his grandfather was possibly first captured by the Russians then he was captured by the Germans, marched to Germany and then released by the Americans. All of this possibly happened before 1944. I was thinking, is it possible that his grandfather was a member of the Tudor Vladimirescu Division?

Radu

We would then be talking about the same time frame, because the TV Division entered action in August 1944.
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Radub
Posted: April 05, 2009 07:37 am
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True, but the vague timeframe of "before 1944" may mean that he was possibly captured by the Russians let's say in late 1943 or early 1944, added to the TV Division in 1944, then captured by the Germans after August 1944 and sent to Germany from where he was released by the Americans in 1945. The Americans could not have released him "before 1944" anyway.
It is just a supposition anyway. :D
Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on April 05, 2009 07:38 am
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MMM
Posted: April 05, 2009 08:14 am
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I see no real result coming from incomplete data! I may repeat myself, but the only explanation I could give if the person in cause was captured before 1944 would be that he was a legionnaire, deported in Germany in january 1941. Otherwise, if he might have been captured by Soviets, and then re-captured by Wehrmacht, at some point he would have been shot either as spy or as desertor :)
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MMM
Posted: April 06, 2009 02:24 pm
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QUOTE (21 inf @ April 05, 2009 05:08 am)
There it is a posibility that the man was sent from Romania to Germany before 1944 for forced labor and lately drafted in german army.

I never heard of Romanians sent to Germany for forced labor and then recruited to Wehrmacht! Maybe recruited in KZ-Lagers :(
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Cantemir
Posted: April 08, 2009 12:00 pm
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You may remember that I posted a message earlier about the (Romanian) father of a friend of mine who was captured by the British at the Battle of Monte Casino, well before Marshall Antonescu had agreed to Romanian troops being recruited by the Germans. I wrote that I was surprised because I had understood that Antonescu had insisted that Romanian troops should only face the Russians. If he had been a deported Legionary then he would have been beyond the reach of the Marshall and as a Legionary probably would have had fewer scruples about facing the British.

You may remember, however, that I also wrote that we weren't completely sure if he was Romanian-speaking or German-speaking (he came from Timiscoara). If he was German-speaking, my understanding is that before 1944 Marshall Antonescu refused to allow German-speakers to be recruited into the Wehrmacht, so if he was not based in Germany before Antonescu's decision I cannot explain how he came to be in the German army. Also, when Swabians were recruited into the Wehrmacht, it was done on the basis of conscription, not as volunteers. On the other hand, if he was in Germany before the Battle of Monte Casino, he would have been a Swabian in the Iron Guard, were there many German-speakers in the Guard?

If he was Romanian-speaking, his enlistment in the German army would have been before Antonescu agreed to Romanian-speakers being recruited as volunteers.
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MMM
Posted: April 08, 2009 12:29 pm
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QUOTE
allow German-speakers to be recruited into the Wehrmacht

What?!?!?!
It was about Romanian citizens, nothing else. And, AFAIK, the German Ethnics (you may have heard about GEG, the German Ethnic Group, under the leadership of Andreas Schmidt) were encouraged to fight under the banner of the SS.
Also, take a look at this:
http://www.itcnet.ro/history/archive/mi200...rent11/mi75.htm
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