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> lupta intre miraslau si aiud (romani si horty trup
ANDREAS
Posted: December 05, 2012 08:39 pm
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Thank you Denes! Always a confirmation of a story is welcome! Even if we don't know which unit these tanks belong to, it's now certain that 3 german Tiger tanks opened fire in Aiud in 26 august 1944!

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on December 05, 2012 08:42 pm
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MMM
Posted: December 05, 2012 08:46 pm
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ December 05, 2012 11:39 pm)
it's now certain that 3 german Tiger tanks opened fire in Aiud in 26 august 1944!

Is it? But if there were three and one of them had overturned, there should have remained only two.
Teius to Radio Erevan! Do you read me? Over... :D
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 05, 2012 10:20 pm
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MMM, apparently you did not read the passage carefully: the tanks had open fire while they were still on the wagons, the two tanks you mention were the ones who were able to leave the station! When two sources say the same thing, why should I believe the authors who don't mention these tanks left here in Aiud? if these authors don't know about them (the three Tiger tanks), can you bet that they are right and the veterans are wrong?
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Taz1
Posted: December 06, 2012 01:29 pm
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If we had 2 surces of information about the same event , most probably this event is real. It fits the description -3 german heavy tank with a heavy halftrack with a heavy crane as we see in the picture , necesary to help changing the wider trucks with narrow one for railway transport, one tank being stucked in the mud when it tried to cross the Mures reaver most probably from the narrow trucks good only on good roads and not in mud . Information regarding this incident now better the locals eyewitnesses this it was quite an event for Aiud in 1944, they probably now what happend with the tanks. Soviet archive it is possible to contain something because they confiskated all german armor found on the romanian front. If they were tiger tanks they were grossdeutschland ot totenkoph tiger - from what I now the only german divisions in Romania that had tigers.
We now if the were any german armored unit in that area on 23-26.08.44 ?
Denes from what archive do you found information regarding the 3 antiaircraft cannons send to help in Aiud ?
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 06, 2012 06:25 pm
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Although I know that a direct connection with the subject discussed is hard to be made, I have to mention that in 25 september 1944 in the Turda battle the Hungarian 2nd Armored Division used in battle 3 Panzerkampfwagen Tiger Ausf. E with some succes against soviet armor, this tanks being probably the survivers from the Galitian battle fought in summer 1944. These tanks survived this battle and retreated with the Division in Hungary where they fought in the Battle of Debrecen. I mention this story because the Turda area was not too far from Aiud and in both stories there are 3 Tiger tanks involved. But being distant in time and space one from another I can't make a connection between these stories or an assumption that these tanks can be the same.
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aidan zea
Posted: December 08, 2012 09:31 pm
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QUOTE
Even if we don't know which unit these tanks belong to, it's now certain that 3 german Tiger tanks opened fire in Aiud in 26 august 1944!

Andreas,
Because Denes appears to quote also a Romanian source as you do I think it's safe to assume that there were three tanks at Aiud who opened fire and two who tried to flee and succeeded up to a point but it's not certain that these tanks were Tigers! As I have in my library 14 books and magazines dedicated to the Tiger tanks (including history of all units who used him) I am cautious to trust this romanian sources!

This post has been edited by aidan zea on December 08, 2012 09:32 pm
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Florin
Posted: December 09, 2012 10:05 am
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QUOTE (MMM @ November 30, 2012 08:49 am)
@Florin: perhaps the Americans DO use the term "nazi", but not in "scientific context" when reffering to the Germans.
...........

Please define "scientific context". :)
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MMM
  Posted: December 09, 2012 11:11 am
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QUOTE (Florin @ December 09, 2012 01:05 pm)
QUOTE (MMM @ November 30, 2012 08:49 am)
@Florin: perhaps the Americans DO use the term "nazi", but not in "scientific context" when reffering to the Germans.
...........

Please define "scientific context". :)

Oh, come on! In scientific works (aka history books written by historians, not by the likes of Cristoiu and such...), in serious historical documentaries (also having historians as consultants), in scientific theses and so on. NOT on forums, though... B)

This post has been edited by MMM on December 09, 2012 11:11 am
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Taz1
Posted: December 09, 2012 09:40 pm
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Romanians troops were capable of identified german heavy tanks tiger maybe to put panthers tank in the same category. I don,t think they missidentified the tigers with panzer 3 or 4 or stugs maybe with panthers tank but I don,t think so. The others elements of the story fit the description of a tiger tank detachment.
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aidan zea
Posted: December 09, 2012 11:02 pm
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Taz1, what I meant is that I found no mention in these books about any other heavy tank unit except Grossdeutschland and SS Totenkopf Divisional Heavy Tank Battalions in Romania. And as both left Romania several months before august 1944 I express my doubts! The explanation with the possible Panther tanks misidentified as Tigers is possible because the Hungarian troops (as I know and as Denes confirmed!) received in early september some german tanks (Panthers included) originally intended to be delivered to the Romanian Army. Why not some Panthers for training? Obviously is just an assumption without basis...
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MMM
Posted: December 11, 2012 05:14 pm
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QUOTE (Taz1 @ December 10, 2012 12:40 am)
Romanians troops were capable of identified german heavy tanks tiger maybe to put panthers tank in the same category. I don,t think they missidentified the tigers with panzer 3 or 4 or stugs maybe with panthers tank but I don,t think so. The others elements of the story fit the description of a tiger tank detachment.

The StuG's wouldn't even have had the capability of firing from the railroad tracks! Their cannon had a very limited range of movement left-right or up... And a Tiger is quite difficult to be mistaken with another type of tank, IMO...
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Taz1
Posted: December 12, 2012 09:25 pm
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All I wants to say is that the story fits the description of a tiger tank detachement : the presence of a heavy crane needet for changing the tracks, the fact that the one tank remained stucked in the mud logic if the tank was equiped with narow trucks for railway transport siuted only for good roads. Ideal is to have more information about this event but it is not very easy.
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MMM
Posted: December 13, 2012 01:27 pm
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QUOTE (Taz1 @ December 13, 2012 12:25 am)
All I wants to say is that the story fits the description of a tiger tank detachement : the presence of a heavy crane needet for changing the tracks, the fact that the one tank remained stucked in the mud logic if the tank was equiped with narow trucks for railway transport siuted only for good roads. Ideal is to have more information about this event but it is not very easy.

So only the heavy tanks detachments needed a heavy crane?
OoT: if all three tanks had narrow tracks, why only one capsized? (or was it stucked?)
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Taz1
Posted: December 13, 2012 09:28 pm
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No this is not what I want to say. Only the fact that the prezence of crane the fact that one of the tanks remain stucked one brokedown enchances the possibility that those tanks to be tigers ( with narow track made for railway transport you had 99,99 % chances to be stuched on a bad road with a tiger otherways tiger had excelent offroad capability, a heavy crane it is needed to change the tracks etc.) In the end the problem is if we can trust or not romanian archive, did those guys were totally idiots and can,t recognise the heavy german tanks ? A tiger or a panther. From other surses I now that romanians troops were capable in 1944 to recognize tiger tanks.
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MMM
Posted: December 13, 2012 09:44 pm
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QUOTE (Taz1 @ December 14, 2012 12:28 am)
I now that romanians troops were capable in 1944 to recognize tiger tanks.

With the risk of becoming nit-picker, not all the troops knew the difference! It was enough for some of them to just hear the dreaded word "TANKS", to get them running; not only the Romanians, but also other second-rate troops as well (intendence, sedentary parts etc.).
No offence for the veterans which fought the T-34's or KV's, but not everybody had that "privilege"...
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