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> lupta intre miraslau si aiud (romani si horty trup
ANDREAS
Posted: December 01, 2012 12:57 pm
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On the day of September 8th, it have been ordered to attack to the 1st Battalion/91st Infantry Regiment just arrived from the Teius area the heights from south Lopadea Veche in order to retake control over the country roads leading to Magina and Livezile villages. The attack was supported by the 4 mountain guns, the 2 heavy mortars and the 2 heavy howitzers of the romanian troops but the ennemy put up a strong resistance and he was supported by artillery too. But by the evening the Romanian troops managed to broke the enemy positions and take the heights. From this day the initiative passed entirely to the Romanian troops, the last attempt to attack Aiud city from the east after crossing the Mures river and the occupation of Micoslaca was blocked by the romanian battalions from the 92nd Infantry Regiment. The Romanians identified in this day the ennemy troops deployment: 1 Hungarian Battalion at Lunca on the Aries Valley, 2 Battalions at Valisoara and Izvoarele, 1 Battalion at Lopadea Veche and 8 howitzers 100mm, 3 Battalions in Miraslau and nearby (interesting is that occupation of this village was not mentioned anywhere earlier!) and 8 mortars 81mm and 4 howitzers 100mm, 2 Battalions in Decea and Unirea villages and 1 Battalion in Micoslaca south of the Mures river. It is mentioned the lack of armored vehicles by the ennemy forces at this time (so it is unsure if they existed before!). Between 9 and 12 september 1944 there were daily attacks from the hungarian forces mainly on the positions from Lopadea Veche area but they were designed to prevent an imminent Romanian counteroffensive as the Hungarian abandoned in 9th September their positions from Lunca (retreating at Vidolm), Valisoara (retreating at Rimetea), Miraslau (retrating at Cicau) and Decea (retrating at Vintu de Jos/Unirea). They also evacuated the bridgehead south of the Mures river abandoning the Micoslaca and Cisteiu de Mures villages.
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 01, 2012 02:08 pm
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Indeed on 14 September, two days later than planned, the romanian battle group (the 8th and 15th Mountain Hunter Battalions, the 1st Mountain Pioneer Battalion and the 5th Mountain Gun Battalion alongside to the 1st Battalion/90th Infantry Regiment and the 1st Battalion/91st Infantry Regiment) having about 3200 men together with the soviet 35th Guard Corps vigorously attacked the ennemy, the Romanian group attacking on direction Miraslau -Podeni -Moldovenesti -Cheile Turzii capturing in the same day 4 100mm Skoda howitzers and 8 47mm Böhler antitank guns abandoned by the ennemy troops with all carts and horses together. By the end of the day the Romanian group has reached the Aries river north of Moldovenesti preparing to cross the river to form a bridgehead but was ordered from the soviet command to remain in place preparing redeployment in another area together with the rest of forces of the romanian 2nd Mountain Division.
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 01, 2012 02:24 pm
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In order to try to draw a conclusion from the text I posted I can say that there are relatively few data available in what concerns their own and the enemy's losses, are omitted important details such as the loss of Miraslau village, they don't explain very well the cause of enemy troops failures given that the ennemy appears superior in number of units... but is a starting point to reconstruct the battle from this area!
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MMM
Posted: December 02, 2012 02:08 pm
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ December 01, 2012 01:40 am)
Taz1, you are absolutely right! It's indeed possible that these tanks have belonged to Grossdeutschland or SS-Totenkopf Divisions and for various reasons could not be withdrawn in time to be send together with the rest of their parent division! Or as I assumed myself tanks may not be Tigers but a lighter type who knows?
I would like if you be able to post pictures, maybe the admin could help?

But didn't those two divisions leave the front much earlier? GD left in late July GrossDeutschland Division and the Totenkopf in early July Totenkopf Division
Thus I found quite hard to believe that more than a month later the Germans would have left behind three precious Tigers; also, with the frontline repair shops available, the damaged tanks were either repaired "on the spot" or sent back to Germany for rehauling. So we should find another hypothesis...
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 02, 2012 09:37 pm
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QUOTE
But didn't those two divisions leave the front much earlier? GD left in late July GrossDeutschland Division and the Totenkopf in early July Totenkopf Division
Thus I found quite hard to believe that more than a month later the Germans would have left behind three precious Tigers; also, with the frontline repair shops available, the damaged tanks were either repaired "on the spot" or sent back to Germany for rehauling. So we should find another hypothesis...

Indeed MMM, I was thinking about this when I expressed doubts about these tanks being Tigers... episode is quoted from the memoirs of Colonel Mircea Vladescu who lead the 4th Mountain Group deployed in the Aiud area! And details given make this episode very credible...
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Taz1
Posted: December 03, 2012 09:21 pm
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Seems that the hungarian troops involved in this combats were not quite elite. Regardings the Tiger tanks it is hard to belive that they were there but as I said it is not imposible. We now that grossdeutschland division was transfered in est prusia in late july but we don,t have a exact calendar of the transfer. Embark and desembark hundreds of tanks and other vehicles it is not an easy task.It took time to transfer the division in est prusia. If those tiger were brokedown they were left at the end .The moldova front was a quiet sector until 20.08.44 so they had time to fix the tiger here( there was a repaire station at Bacau ) so all in all it is quite possible that the tiger where in Aiud on 26.04.2012. In the book it says something about the fate of those tanks? Most probably were seized by the soviets.
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 03, 2012 10:48 pm
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Taz1, actually no, the book does not say anything about these tanks after their failed attempt to leave the Aiud area and cross the Mures river. Because I haven't gave too many details about this episode I do that now:
in the afternoon of 24th August a German military train loaded with materials coming from Teius arrived in Aiud station. In the middle of the train set had been introduced 4 platform wagons with 3 Tiger heavy tanks and 1 heavy halftruck with a crane and 1 platform with 1 truck and 1 light allroad car. The heavy tanks were fully loaded with ammo and had 12 men crew near them. The train was commanded by a (German) army major. The chief of the railway station Aiud who received orders to stop all German military trainsets heading towards the border, take out of the wagons the five platforms and parked them on a dead line. Taking into consideration the situation colonel Vladescu ordered to the 1st Mountain Pioneer Battalion to send troops to take the train and if the Germans oppose to open fire. To execute the mission a pioneer company was send to the station and blocked all exits. The German train commander opposed handing the armor and threatened to use force. To intimidate the Romanian soldiers he ordered to shoot a few salvo from the tanks, the projectiles damaging several buildings and setting fire to a city warehouse near the station. The explosions and fires had panicked a part of the town inhabitants, some leaving their homes. In the morning of the 26th August the Romanian pioneers encircled the 5 wagons and hit several times the unarmored vehicles. The Germans tried to get off the platforms the three tanks and run with them, but without being able to improvise a landing stage because of the shootings. Their attempt failed! One heavy tank was overthrew on one side and could not move anymore but the other two were able to leave the station area. One of these two was found stumbled before trying to cross the Mures river on a bridge and the other one who succeeded crossing the river was found not far from shore, apparently stopped by a technical problem.
This is all what it's written about this episode with the Tiger heavy tanks from Aiud.
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Taz1
Posted: December 04, 2012 08:53 pm
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So probably there were tiger tanks. No allways archive tell everithing. The same situation is with the prezence of waffen ss troops on Moldova front in late august 44, archive sed one thing and eyewitness another but this is another storie. No dubt that the locals from Aiud how lived in the period had some interesting memories about the events, if somebody colect those memories.
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MMM
Posted: December 04, 2012 09:25 pm
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Probably is the key word here! Tigers were too precious and Romania's front wasn't a place to "leave behind" such felines. :P
Taz, it is funny, though, how you prefer some eyewitnesses to the archive documents.
IIRC, there was a site with the "history" of all the Tiger tanks in WW2, but I cannot remember it right now. That site should throw a light upon this dubious recollection...
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 04, 2012 09:32 pm
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MMM, you mean this? http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tigers.htm
About Grossdeutschland Division Tiger tanks it's written here: http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/tigers.htm

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on December 04, 2012 09:39 pm
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MMM
  Posted: December 04, 2012 09:37 pm
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ December 05, 2012 12:32 am)
MMM, you mean this? http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tigers.htm

YES! In my memory, it had more details, but either I remember wrong ('m getting too old...) or it was another site. I seem to remember the photos, though...
Thanks again, ANDREAS!
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ANDREAS
Posted: December 04, 2012 09:41 pm
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Gladly MMM, but unfortunately we did not solve the mystery :P
MMM, perhaps you meant that? http://www.alanhamby.com/unithist.shtml#PRG
If here is reflected the real situation than the story above is unbelievable...

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on December 04, 2012 09:47 pm
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Dénes
Posted: December 05, 2012 07:41 am
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ December 04, 2012 04:48 am)
in the afternoon of 24th August a German military train loaded with materials coming from Teius arrived in Aiud station.

There is documentary back up to this story.
"Reg. 91 inf. Alba Iulia reports on 26 Aug., 03:00, that tree German Tiger tanks are terrorising the population of Aiud, by firing on the road with their cannon.
Bat. 3 aca Simeria sent two cannon to support Reg. 91 inf."


Gen. Dénes
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Taz1
Posted: December 05, 2012 11:15 am
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I don,t trust eyewitnesses more than archive in 95% of cases it the archive is corect but from various reason archive destroed during war etc. just becaus a fact it is not in archive doesn,t mean that never happend. Here is one site with tiger tank in Moldova in 1944 being repaired and others with tiger tank being embarker on railwaywagons : http://www.scribd.com/doc/61379071/Tiger-I...rchiv-Volume-II

http://www.tiif.de/thread.php?threadid=99&...dd19a4ada551dc2

This are the links with pictures .
Denes what does means Bat. 3 aca Simeria ?
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Dénes
Posted: December 05, 2012 11:24 am
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QUOTE (Taz1 @ December 05, 2012 05:15 pm)
Denes what does means Bat. 3 aca Simeria ?

Bateria 3 antiaeriana, with home base at Simeria.

Gen. Dénes
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