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> lupta intre miraslau si aiud (romani si horty trup
MMM
Posted: January 28, 2009 06:08 pm
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QUOTE
still legal to go scavenging battlefields with metal detectors

It's better than to remain there undiscovered, I guess...
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ANDREAS
Posted: November 28, 2012 06:58 pm
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I recently found an extensive description of this battle, actually of the military operations in the area in the period 24.08.-14.09.1944. As the description of the operations is spread on 16 pages I can only point out some passages if somebody is still interested in this subject!
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Dénes
Posted: November 28, 2012 07:41 pm
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I am interested in reading details and specifics. Thanks.

Gen. Dénes
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ANDREAS
Posted: November 28, 2012 10:45 pm
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I'm glad to hear that Denes!
So, the first episode really remarkable that I read was that of annihilation (I can not find another more appropriate term!) of a German military trainsets that carries 3 heavy Tiger tanks (!!). The episode which I find a bit bizarre (because I know that in Romania in august 1944 can't be found no German heavy tank units!) happened in 26 august in Aiud railway Station, the Germans opposing the attempt of romanian troops to disarm them and capture the heavy tanks. But in an attempt to run with the tanks the German crews had the misfortune to have technical problems 2 tanks who managed to escape from the station failed to cross the Mures river because of technical problems and the tank who remained in the Aiud station was immobilized! This German military train apparently came from the station Teius so from Romania, apparently retreating towards Cluj. The Romanian unit who carried out this operation was a pioneer company it is written. I have no doubts that the German vehicles captured there were tanks but I can not imagine why 3 heavy Tiger tanks were moving through Romania at that time when no heavy tank unit was stationed/deployed on the Moldavian Front! In any case this episode is (seem) real so who knows?
Passing this episode to the main issue is mentioned that starting with august 28, 1944, Romanian troops of the Aiud area began to prepare intensively for a fight fearing an attack from the Cluj area towards Alba Iulia. Then they have constituted a detachment known as "General Visarion Detachment" or "Western Detachment" to defend an area between Buru on Aries river and east of Ludus town on Mures river (about 50 km frontal expanse). In this larger detachment the group that we follow further is the "Colonel Vladescu Group" who was responsable to defend the bottom line of "General Visarion Detachment". The "Colonel Vladescu Group" was composed of 8th Mountain Hunter Battalion, 1st Mountain Pioneer Battalion and 5th Mortar Division (Battalion) and had the mission to defend the wooded heights from north Miraslau -Cisteiul de Mures. Because the evacuation orders for goods (from the military units) have delayed Colonel Vladescu ordered himself the evacuation starting at 29 august 1944. After successful evacuation of the goods and military administration the attention was moved to prepare the units for battle. Due to lack of personal the two mountain battalions were unable to gather (together) more than 1000 men (half of the normal war strength), but the situation of the transport means was even worse and almost non existent when we speak about communications devices and cable.

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on November 30, 2012 11:48 pm
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Florin
Posted: November 29, 2012 05:25 am
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Whoever issued the order to send the 3 Tiger I into Romania, could not predict what will happen on August 23. Maybe the 3 heavy tanks were in the right place, but at the wrong moment.
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Florin
Posted: November 29, 2012 05:29 am
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QUOTE (Dénes @ January 27, 2009 05:54 am)
Bogdan, when referring to the Hungarian army of WW2, the term "horthyst", or even "hortist", is used exclusively by authors/publications reflecting the national/communist point of view. Same with the "nazi", "fascist", or even "hitlerite" labels placed on the German army.
The usage of all these derogatory terms denotes clear bias against the army the author/publication refers to.
..................

The term "Nazi troops", "Nazi army" and "Nazi scientists" is used extensively in the U.S. as well - not that I would agree with that. Well, I guess you know why.
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ANDREAS
Posted: November 29, 2012 10:23 pm
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Florin, I want to disagree! If indeed the 3 tanks were Tigers then the one who sent them here in Romania was stupid (or maybe not, just my oppinion) because with 3 Tiger tanks you can't have any effect in a large battle as was the one on the Moldavian Front started in 20 august. Maybe with a heavy tank battalion yes, possible, but otherwise not, only waste of good armor!
Back to topic, the precarious material status of the Colonel Vladescu Group make the commander to take (more or less legal) from a factory in Aiud about 300 carts sufficient for the needs of his battle group, the horses and harnesses were taken from the people from Aiud and neighborhood. But from a chance finding out of that a truck carrying submachine gun, field phones, G radio transmitter and some 30 km of cable have a accident, so the entire equipment intended for an aviation unit was taken away. So with the materiel and technical problems solved the group was prepared for battle receiving orders to forbid the access of the ennemy on the two main ways of penetration towards Aiud and Alba Iulia: the modernized highway and railroad Campia Turzii -Aiud -Alba Iulia and the carriageway road Buru -Valisoara -Aiud that converge toward Aiud city. The problem was that the forces available were completely insufficient to block both directions and to maintain the Cacova -Dealul Lopezii -Miraslau area, having a front length of 10 km. After numerous requests for reinforcements the group finally received another Mountain Hunter Battalion, the 15th, so that the situation of the group improved. In September 1st, 1944, it was adopted the defensive organisation of the group with the 8th Mountain Battalion defending the right wing from Mures river to the northern Miraslau heights forbidding the penetration along the communication Podeni Miraslau and along the Mures river, the 15th Mountain Battalion defended the Lopadea Veche height (445m) and in the reserve the 1st Mountain Pioneer Battalion and 5th Mortar Division were ready to support the troops in case the enemy would overwhelm them. As heavy weapons there were only 4 mountain guns, Skoda type, 75mm., and 2 heavy mortars, Brandt type, 120mm for the 1900 soldiers of this battle group.

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on November 30, 2012 11:51 pm
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MMM
Posted: November 30, 2012 01:49 pm
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@Florin: perhaps the Americans DO use the term "nazi", but not in "scientific context" when reffering to the Germans.
@ANDREAS: what are your sources for this "3-Tigers" story? I haven't read of it anywhere else.
Also, "Mortar Division" could lead to confusions, as undoubtedly it's a batallion. It was discussed earlier in here:
Division vs. Divizion
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ANDREAS
Posted: November 30, 2012 03:31 pm
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On September 5th, 1944, two trolleys with Hungarian soldiers appeared near railway station Miraslau. After they cross the railway bridge was blown us by Romanian pioneers who forced the Hungarians to surrender. The 12 Hungarian prisoners were escorted later to Aiud. At the same time a reconnaissance unit some 30 men strong appeared coming down the road Podeni -Miraslau was stopped by fire of the company led by captain Negru. The Hungarian group was destroyed after precise fire opened by the 120mm heavy mortars from reserve. Another reconnaissance unit appeared from Cicau but was was quickly rejected. In the early morning of September 6th, an hungarian battalion from the 23 Regiment/7th Field Replacement Division managed to take the height from south Lopadea threatening to enter in Livezile and endanger the defence positions of the entire group. To counterattack participated the entire 15th Mountain Battalion after two hours of intense fight the enemy was retreating although supported by fire from a howitzer battalion equipped with 100mm Skoda field howitzers (as was later identified). During this fight 33 Hungarian soldiers were taken prisoners. But in the same afternoon Colonel Vladescu was appointed commander over the forces from Aiudel valley intended to defend the Buru -Valisoara -Poiana Aiudului road. Emergency was represented by the 13 (Hungarian) Infantry Regiment /7th Field Replacement Division who was advancing on this route and threaten the group positions. The Lt col Negoita was was appointed commander of the group by Colonel Vladescu which was occupied by organising the romanian forces from the Aiudel valley. He took immediatly command of the 1st Battalion/ 90th Infantry Regiment found in Magina village who was ordered to move in Cacova village and held positions on all costs. Getting in touch with a battery commander from the 7th Heavy Artillery Regiment who had just arrived in Aiud Colonel Vladescu ordered fire on the bridge between Poiana and Valisoara area located between two steep slopes in a rocky terrain. As he soon take contact with the 1st Battaion/ 83rd Infantry Regiment he ordered an immediate attack on the advancing Hungarian Regiment counting on the fact that it was affected by the hits of the heavy artillery and maybe disorganized. Indeed the attack was successful some 120 Hungarian soldiers were captured along with 2 antitank guns with their towing vehicles. They were part of the avant-garde of the Hungarian Regiment, the officer who lead them confirmed that heavy artillery hits combined with the rocky terrain which led to the displacement of rocks led to disorganization of the advancing column over which intervened the unexpected attack of the romanians.

This post has been edited by ANDREAS on November 30, 2012 11:52 pm
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ANDREAS
Posted: November 30, 2012 03:44 pm
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MMM,
the same book describes both "Tiger capture" episode and also "Aiud -Miraslau battle" and is "In primele linii de foc" Memorii de razboi, Editura Militara, Bucuresti, 1981, from page 99 to 114. As I said I have some doubts about these tanks being Tigers as there is no logic to send Tigers near a front line where no Heavy Tank Battalion was deployed (or if you want SS Totenkopf or Grossdeutschland Panzergrenadier Divisions were no longer deployed -these two divisions had organic Tiger Companies or Battalions as I remember).
Agree, the term Battalion is better to be used even for artillery units. In order to not get to confusions! In any case I mentioned in brackets what I was reffering to -Battalion.
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MMM
Posted: November 30, 2012 04:29 pm
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ November 30, 2012 06:44 pm)
MMM,
the same book describes both "Tiger capture" episode and also "Aiud -Miraslau battle" and is "In primele linii de foc" Memorii de razboi, Editura Militara, Bucuresti, 1981, from page 99 to 114. As I said I have some doubts about these tanks being Tigers as there is no logic to send Tigers near a front line where no Heavy Tank Battalion was deployed (or if you want SS Totenkopf or Grossdeutschland Panzergrenadier Divisions were no longer deployed -these two divisions had organic Tiger Companies or Battalions as I remember).
Agree, the term Battalion is better to be used even for artillery units. In order to not get to confusions! In any case I mentioned in brackets what I was reffering to -Battalion.

Thanks!
Re: "batallion", I haven't noticed the parenthesis; if I had, I wouldn't comment.
Re: Tigers: also very odd is the small number of them: three tanks are just a replacement for something, but this particular "something" was NOT there in summer '44! I think, also because it's a book written in 1981, that the author saw something that wasn't there, for various reasons...
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Taz1
Posted: November 30, 2012 09:16 pm
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The only chance to be Tiger tanks in Aiud railway stations is that those tank belonged to grossdeutshland division from moldavian front and from some reasond-tehnical problems of locomotive etc were stil there when the events on 23.08.44 ocured and they decided to stop the tanks there desinbark and help german and hungarin troops from area, even it is hard to beleve that it is not imposible. I post here some pictures with tiger tanks being embarked on railwagons at Vaslui and Marasesti railwaystation. Other possibility is not to be at all tiger tanks but panthers or others german afw armed with 88 mm cannon.
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Taz1
Posted: November 30, 2012 10:16 pm
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I can,t upload pictures don,t now way :(
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ANDREAS
Posted: November 30, 2012 10:40 pm
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Taz1, you are absolutely right! It's indeed possible that these tanks have belonged to Grossdeutschland or SS-Totenkopf Divisions and for various reasons could not be withdrawn in time to be send together with the rest of their parent division! Or as I assumed myself tanks may not be Tigers but a lighter type who knows?
I would like if you be able to post pictures, maybe the admin could help?
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ANDREAS
Posted: November 30, 2012 11:12 pm
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On the day of September 7, the Hungarian 23 Infantry Regiment/7th Field Replacement Division attacked with one of its battalions the spur of the hill which separates Lopadea Veche from Cacova villages hitting the 1st Battalion/90th Infantry Regiment who had to be sustained by the 15th Mountain Hunter Battalion. Even supported by artillery the Hungarian troops were repelled by romanian battalions in the same afternoon. The 8th Mountain Hunter Battalion repelled the same day two ennemy attacks carried with forces of small value (30-40 men strong) on the road Podeni -Miraslau and on the Rotund hill. In the night from 7/8 september arrived at the group command post a soviet reconnaissance armored car with a major from the soviet 35th Army Corps which required data on the situation. Trying to collect alone informations on the Poiana Aiudului -Valisoara road, he was hit by ennemy strong resistance and quickly withdrew.
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