FARR rejecting the Il-2?

I read on another forum that the FARR had been offered captured Il-2´s but had rejected them. From what I understood this was "common knowledge", can anyone here elaborate?

Thanks in advance

I never heard about this offer. But indeed this offer was usless. How can a romanian unit of Il 2 fight without :

- Soviet Ammunition
- Soviet bombs
- Field repair and service knowledge of russian planes
- Enough spare pieces.
- And important thing how can axis AA can be aware not mistake the romanian Il 2 with soviet Il 2.

These are all valid points (not to mention also the piloting skills needed to fly the Il-2); however, all these issues could have been solved, if really necessary (see the Finnish example).

I know of no such offer, though.

Gen. Dénes

I never heard about this offer. But indeed this offer was usless. How can a romanian unit of Il 2 fight without :

- Soviet Ammunition
- Soviet bombs
- Field repair and service knowledge of russian planes
- Enough spare pieces.
- And important thing how can axis AA can be aware not mistake the romanian Il 2 with soviet Il 2.

The Finns seem to have managed to operate a number of Soviet types and the Romanian army success fully operated captured Soviet equipment but I had never heard about this "common Knowledge" offer. I would have thought that if such an offer was made it would have made a very nice complement to the Hs-129

There are some big difference between Finnish theater of operation and romanian front. The romanian aviation units were moving fast from one airfield to another so logistig was very important to keep up with all necesary (services, amunition, spare parts etc).
And speaking of ground attack (tank buster) planes. The germans had a good one the Henschel 129 (also in romanian service), highly maneuvrable (close as a fighter plane), heavy armed etc. The only mistake was that germans didn't realize the importance of this kind of planes and produced in small numbers.
I believe that if used in large numbers starting from 1942 on russian front attacking the famous T-34 tank units it could changed the war course (at least at Stalingrad).

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on November 11, 2008 02:24 pm

I fully agree with this.
Once I wrote a study comparing the Il-2 to the Hs 129, and the latter clearly came out favourably. Just to mention the one engine vs. two engines advantage, the liquid cooled and air cooled engines' behaviour when hit in combat, or the overall metal construction vs. the mixed one.

Gen. Dénes

After the war Romania received Il-10, evolved from Il-2 (Soviet made starting in 1950 and Czechoslovak made from 1953):
http://www.virtualarad.com/orizont_aviatic...4/articol_4.htm
In this book:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=4863
It is said that a number of former Group 8 airmen who flew the Hs 129 during the war also flew the Il-10 at Brasov. They considered that Hs129 was better because it had two engines and good visibility.

I fully agree with this.
Once I wrote a study comparing the Il-2 to the Hs 129, and the latter clearly came out favourably. Just to mention the one engine vs. two engines advantage, the liquid cooled and air cooled engines' behaviour when hit in combat, or the overall metal construction vs. the mixed one.

Gen. Dénes

Wasnt the Romanian Hs-129 the A model liquid cooled and horribly underpowered?

No, romanian had the B2 model with gnome rhone radial (air cooled) engines. The power was not bad (2 x 800HP) but ofcourse were not as good as BMW radial engines (unfortunetly not available for Henschel 129).

This comes up every now and then on the internet where "everyone is an expert as long as they can copy&paste someone else's writings". In the nebulous past, somebody wrote in some web page that Aeronautica Romana used inline-engined Hs129s, and then this tidbit of information it was copied and pasted until it became "internet fact"

The confusion is basically that at first, the Hs129 was powered by inline Argus engines. These were called Hs129A. Then, the decision was taken to re-engine the aircraft with radial Gnome Rhone 14M Mars engines. These were called Hs129B. However, some of the Hs129A were also re-engined with radial engines. Although technically these were "B", they maintained their serial numbers, part of a batch of serial numbers that was assigned to "A" types. When they became "B" types, the serial number still belonged to an "A" type batch. This affected just a handful of airframes. Some of these airframes were sold to Romania. That lead to the belief that Aeronautica Romana received inline-engined aircraft, although a better description would be "radial re-engined A-types".

Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on November 14, 2008 12:26 pm

There are some big difference between Finnish theater of operation and romanian front. The romanian aviation units were moving fast from one airfield to another so logistig was very important to keep up with all necesary (services, amunition, spare parts etc).
And speaking of ground attack (tank buster) planes. The germans had a good one the Henschel 129 (also in romanian service), highly maneuvrable (close as a fighter plane), heavy armed etc. The only mistake was that germans didn't realize the importance of this kind of planes and produced in small numbers.
I believe that if used in large numbers starting from 1942 on russian front attacking the famous T-34 tank units it could changed the war course (at least at Stalingrad).

In the first I want to wish everybody " A Happy New Year ! "


I read in some books and articles that Henschel 129 was considered by Germans a poor project . This type of plane had many technical problems and was very unpleasant for German pilots . Luftwaffe prefered to use in main adapted variants of Ju 87 and FW 190 for ground atack missions . Probably this is the reason that the plane wasn't made in many numbers and a number of planes was delivered to Romanians for 8 Ground Atack Group . For Romanian pilots was a very good plane , they appreciated it comparative with the planes who equiped ARR .

Actually, that is an often-repeated misconception. The German pilots loved it, just like the Romanians did, but in different ways.

There are some very good books on the subject such as the book by Martin Pegg or the relatively recent book by Denes Bernad published by Midland Counties Publications. They all point out that the aircraft was not as "bad" or "disliked" as depicted. The very purpose of the aicraft, which meant it had to fly low and slow, placing itself in serious danger from groundfire, also led to severe casualties and losses. A fast high-flying fighter may return home from a mission without having drawn any fire from an enemy, whereas it was very unusual for a Hs129 to come home without having been fired at. These aircraft flew even in range for pistols! The Russians fired everything they got at them.

Furthermore, the Romanians used the Hs129 in a completely different manner when compared with the Germans.
The Germans preferred to use heavy cannons underneath the fuselage as the main antitank weapon.
The Romanian Hs129 used 6 x 50Kg bombs under the fuselage as the main antitank weapon. These bombs were launched at the tanks using a method called a "turnip lob".

Radu

Thank you for reply Radu but I thought that Germans had often the intention to give us mainly their outdated planes . The Heinkel 114 seaplane was for example another unwanted model of Luftwaffe who was delivered to Romanians . Romanian pilots loved it too because was superior to the obsolete Savoia Marchetti 62 bis , 55 and Cant Z501 , but was inferior to other german seaplanes .

Radu described the actual situation with the Henschel Hs 129 pretty accurately.

As for your other sentence, namely "I thought that Germans had often the intention to give us mainly their outdated planes...", that's another myth that somehow still persists even after Communism-influenced writings (those bad fascists, etc.) are (supposed to be) over for 20 years now.

Rumania was Germany's most important ally among the Central and East European Axis countries and received military assistance accordingly. In 1940, for example, Bucharest received the modern Bf 109E fighter and the venerable He 111H bomber. After two years gap, in the Spring of 1943 ARR (more precisely C1ARR) was re-equipped with the same first-line aircraft types Luftwaffe units were wighting with (including the Hs 129) - and all this for free (true, they could be used on the front zone only). And so on.

Gen. Dénes

Thank you all for answers . I wanted to clarify myself these aspects .