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> What fighter plane do you think Romania should use?
 
What fighter plane do you think Romania should use?
MIG 29 [ 19 ]  [14.84%]
F 16 [ 28 ]  [21.88%]
a new IAR design, built here [ 36 ]  [28.12%]
JAS-39 [ 59 ]  [46.09%]
Su-27 [ 17 ]  [13.28%]
Mirage 2000 [ 4 ]  [3.12%]
Total Votes: 163
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dragos
Posted on December 11, 2003 10:36 am
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I have heard at a news bulletin several days ago that Romanian Army is planing to buy fighters in the future, but only F-16, Eurofighter and Grippen were mentioned as options...
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Victor
Posted on December 11, 2003 02:41 pm
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Der Maresal
Posted on December 11, 2003 10:11 pm
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QUOTE
I'm talking about the Indian LCA:
(IMG:http://www.hangardigital.com.ar/articulos/lca/lca_3.jpg)


The plane looks good and is similar to Mirage in shape. - The question is how good it is?
Would you want something built in India? :lol:

2nd) The Mig31 is not a good plane for us - No way - It was build during the late cold war - to replace the Mig 25. It is an interceptor - not a Dogfighter. It's maneuvrability is poor very poor - It is fast, and carries long range weapons- but that's about it.
The Mig 29 is also very fast, carries a heavy armament and is one of the most Meneuvrable planes in the World. I believe it's also cheaper than the Mig 31.
The Indian plane is a better choice than Mig 31. But the Fulcrum is better than both - + it has 2 Englines, thus is is more survivable than an F-16, Mig-21, Grippen and the Indian LCA. It is also Combat Proven unlike the Grippen.
There are 4 main versions of the Mig 29 Single Seater (with a 5th 2 Seat Trainer)

-The Mig 29A is what Romania has now in Service. It is the typical Mig29 and the most widespread in all airforces of the world.
-The Mig29C is a big improvement over the other. It carries more Fuel internally, better on-board equipment, small aerodinamic refinements and alot more - But the Russians don't sell it yet prefering to sell the older Mig29A. [Just like Americans prefer to sell the F-16A instead of the better the F-16C]
-The Mig 29K is a great step towards the design of an entirely new Aircraft, it is a navy Version capable to fly from Aircraft Carriers. It carries Naval Weapons as well as A-G weapons and is FULL of AVIONICS. It is very advanced.
-Last and my favorite is the Mig29M, - a true Fighter Bomber, very advanced and compleatly different (inside) than the old Mig29A.
Avionics [updated]
It is fully Fly-by-Wire, it has HOTAS, Laser,Infrared,Electronic Counter Measures, Search Radar, Fire Controll Radar,Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) (an infrared system that allows you to lock-on the enemy without using your Radar !!- when you fire a missile or the Guns - he never knows what hit him) ! and [Like the Mirage 2000-5] Terrain Following Radar (allowing the auto-pilot to fly the plane a few feet off the ground)!
It is a killer - but not for sale. :cry:
Lastly there is the 2-seat Mig29UB but we have some and don't need more of these trainers (since we have others like IAR 99)
That's it for the Mig - :wink:
(IMG:http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/tapety/miniaturki/mig29c_1024.jpg)
:idea:

PS:how much will it cost to purchase a Licence for the Mig and build it in Romania? Any Ideas? :shock:
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StuG40
Posted on December 12, 2003 02:32 am
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Der Maresal, I read somewhere (forgot where lol) Romania sold all of her Mig-29's recently :?
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Florin
Posted on December 12, 2003 05:48 am
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Hi,

First of all, my thanks for Victor for showing the photo here.

"Der Mareshall' wrote his point of view about MiG-31. I do not comment, because it seems he knows more than me about certain things.

I wonder if he knows that Pratt and Whitney, a US corporation, bought a lot of shares from the manufacturer of the MiG's. Maybe more than 50 percent, but don't believe me without checking. Pratt and Whitney tried to block the manufacturing of the MiG-31. When the Russians asked what will defend them if the air in this situation, the American representatives answered... the United States Air Force! Of course the Russians were deeply annoyed, and I can understand them.

The above text is from a first hand source: the chief designer/engineer of MiG, in this moment. Of course I don't know him, but he wrote an article for Pravda - Internet.
Best regards,
Florin
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Victor
Posted on December 12, 2003 03:18 pm
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Escaping the horror of MEE (dragos knows :D ) I am able to respond some of the questions addressed to me. So sorry for the late reply.

QUOTE
How much is it?


The IAR-99 is 3 times cheaper than the BAe Hawk, 2.5 times cheaper than the MiG-AT and 2 times cheaper than the Alpha-Jet, so something over 3 million USD.

QUOTE
It's in the final stages of development and India will use it from 2010 as their main interceptor. It's also described as a versatile aircraft and they also prepare a vertical takeoff version. It's equipped with modern avionics and weapons systems that are also upgradable (designed to be so). It's described as a usefull deffensive plane.  

And the most attractive feature is the price: 15 to 20 milion $ apiece. For a new fighter I say it's remarcably cheap.  

What's your oppinion about this plane?  


It is not quite in the final stages of development. Only two demonstrators have been built so far, which I am not so sure they even tested weapons on them yet. Five prototypes are to be built and testing will continue. There is still more work to do. As I understand HAL estimates that it will be able to start series production in three years from now. That is if everything goes smoothly, which is rarely the case. Anyway, by then the contract for the new Romanian fighter will probably be signed.

QUOTE
The Mig 29A is what Romania has now in Service.


Correction. What Romania has now in storage.

QUOTE
PS:how much will it cost to purchase a Licence for the Mig and build it in Romania? Any Ideas?.


The fact that the resource of MiG-29s has not been extended and there are plans to sell them is a clear indication that the next fighter is not going to be a MiG-29. :D

IMO is a competition between BAe/Saab and Lockheed Martin. Both companies offered Polish firms very interesting offset programs, up to 8 billion USD. Sincerely I prefer the JAS-39 as is a newer concept and cheaper to operate, but eventually it will be a political decision mostly. It remains to see if the US has a stronger influence than the EU in Romania... But we must also take into consideration that we bought two frigates from the British, so the airplanes will probably be bought from the US.
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Der Maresal
Posted on December 12, 2003 03:26 pm
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QUOTE


QUOTE
The Mig 29A is what Romania has now in Service.


Correction. What Romania has now in storage.


:lol: - You could say that - :D :P

Let's stick to the upgraded Mig21 for now - i prefer that over any future Yankee Import - :P
(IMG:http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/tapety/1-800.jpg)
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Florin
Posted on December 12, 2003 04:17 pm
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QUOTE
.............
Let's stick to the upgraded Mig21 for now - i prefer that over any future Yankee Import -  :P  
..........


Der Maresal,

You have a good intuition.

My vote was to develop an airplane in Romania, maybe because I am engineer and I also trust the technical abilities of the Romanians, who can make wonders if they are helped with money, the right supplies and general available know-how.
Now, returning to MiG-21...

My following text is from an article published in The New York Times in the honor of Michael Pelehach, at his death. Michael Pelehach was a brilliant engineer, who at the peak of his career, in 1980, became president of Grumman International, the company's overseas sales unit.

And now a part of the text written in the honor of this engineer:

"At the Paris Air Show in the late 1960's, Grumman Corp. executive Michael Pelehach spotted a Russian Mig-21 fighter jet, then the envy of air forces around the world because of its speed, maneuverability and firepower.
The United States needed a fighter to defeat the MiG.
Pelehach politely asked the Russians if he could inspect the MiG, and then walked off its measurements. When he returned to Grumman's Bethpage headquarters, Pelehach designed a model of the MiG-21 that was tested in a wind tunnel.
That early work was used later to develop what became Grumman's most successful aircraft - the F-14 Tomcat, still the Navy's premier interceptor and an answer to the MiG.
......................................................................................................"

To help you to get the grasp of "... still the Navy's premier interceptor":
the article was published at the end of 2002.

Florin
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mabadesc
Posted on December 12, 2003 05:00 pm
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Florin said,
QUOTE
...Pratt and Whitney, a US corporation, bought a lot of shares from the manufacturer of the MiG's. Maybe more than 50 percent...


Well, that's capitalism.... :)

Pratt & Whitney designed and built the engines for the F-15, F-16, F/A 22 Raptor, F-35 JSF, C-17 Globemaster transport plane, the Boeing 767 military refueling plane version, KC-135 Tanker, and AWACS planes.
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Der Maresal
Posted on December 13, 2003 12:07 am
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To the Grippen now.

SAAB JAS 39 Grippen (Griffon)
The Grippen is Sweden's most advanced Jet. It is a 4th Generation Fighter,
designed for the 21th century and beyond. The F-16 for example dates back to around 1974, but the Grippen is a much newer plane.

JAS stands for "Jakt, Attack, Spaning" meaning Fighter Attack and Reconnaisance.

It can carry Sidewinder or Skyflash Air to Air missiles, Maverick ASM's, anti-ship missiles, bombs, cluster bombs, rocket launcher pods, reconnaissance pods, drop tanks and ECM pods on 6 external hardpoints.
It also carries an internal Mauser 27mm BK27 (Bord Kanone) german canon. (The same as on the Tornados, but only one)

On the outer pair - Mavericks, on the inner Anti-Ship Missiles of Swedish Design (RB 15F)
(IMG:http://else.dnip.net:8181/ac_link/EL-109/01.jpg)

In terms of Avionics it has Electronic Counter Measures (to prevent enemy radar lock) Search Radar, Fire Controll Radar, and Look-down-shoot down system. Laser, Terrain Following Radar and FLIR can also be integrated.

QUOTE
The First prototype JAS 39 Grippen was subsequently destroyed in a spectacular landing accident. The blame was appointed to the flight control system software.


(IMG:http://else.dnip.net:8181/ac_link/EL-109/F023903-2_hi.jpg)
Fully armed -

QUOTE
The Grippen is an excellent Lightweight fighter and attack aircraft, whose capabilities far exceed those of many larger fighters.  
The Aircraft deserves export success.


(IMG:http://else.dnip.net:8181/ac_link/EL-109/gripen_ir_otis_hi.jpg)

If I may add that Sweden is a Neutral country. Buying planes from them would 'draw us closer' to it then buying planes such as the F-16 (which would draw us close to NATO which is American Lead) [and not so neutral, being an alliance] I wish Romania could be a neutral country and not part of any alliance, but at the moment probably this is not a possibility.

And this is what the cockpit looks like - I wonder if the instruments and HDD's (Head down Displays) will be translated in Romanian. :lol:
(IMG:http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/img/saab/gripen/gall97/gripen-cockpit.jpg)
(IMG:http://else.dnip.net:8181/ac_link/EL-109/Dig024004_hi.jpg)
(IMG:http://else.dnip.net:8181/ac_link/EL-109/zomed_in_hi.jpg)
High Resolution Nav-Map (Romania? :?: :P )

(IMG:http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/img/saab/gripen/gall97/gripen-land.jpg)
The Canard Forplanes (little wings) you see bent down provide the Grippen with superb agility.

One of the few reasons we should not buy Grippen-
Look at the markings of these grippens and tell me which country that is
Yes, :) - you guessed it - they also bought Grippens. :?
http://else.dnip.net:8181/ac_link/EL-109/HUNGARY3.jpg
PS: picture takes a long time to load, and has 3307x2126 pixels and 1,782,241kb (one of the largest images you will find on the net)
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Florin
Posted on December 13, 2003 01:00 am
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QUOTE
Florin said,
QUOTE
...Pratt and Whitney, a US corporation, bought a lot of shares from the manufacturer of the MiG's. Maybe more than 50 percent...


Well, that's capitalism.... :)


There is nothing wrong in trying to buy shares from your competitors, especially when you can and it is worth to do that.

But to suggest to a country with more pride and much more power than Romania to give up one of her military developments and research, and to answer that you, her former foe and most important military competitor, will take care of her defence, deserve a 4 or 5 in a 1 to 10 scale for tact and diplomacy.

Florin
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mabadesc
Posted on December 13, 2003 01:10 am
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Wow, I have to admit the Saab Grippen looks *gorgeous*.

If it's as good as it looks, then it will have a great future.

Florin said:
QUOTE
But to suggest to a country with more pride and much more power than Romania to give up one of her military developments and research, and to answer that you, her former foe and most important military competitor, will take care of her defence, deserve a 4 or 5 in a 1 to 10 scale for tact and diplomacy


I completely agree with you. Very tactless. But who said this? It doesn't represent the official position of the US government, does it?
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Victor
Posted on December 13, 2003 08:04 am
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QUOTE
One of the few reasons we should not buy Grippen-
Look at the markings of these grippens and tell me which country that is
Yes,  :)  - you guessed it - they also bought Grippens.  :?


So what? :?
If it is a good deal why not take it?
Btw, BAe also got involved in the marketing of the Grippen, so it is not that neutral anymore.
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Dénes
Posted on December 13, 2003 03:01 pm
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QUOTE
One of the few reasons we should not buy Grippen-
Look at the markings of these grippens and tell me which country that is
Yes,  :)  - you guessed it - they also bought Grippens.  :?  
http://else.dnip.net:8181/ac_link/EL-109/HUNGARY3.jpg

First, it's GRIPEN (Griffin), not Grippen.
Second, I see no conflict in Rumania avoiding to buy the Gripen only because Hungary will buy it, too (the Czechs might also buy the same bird).
For example, the Messerschmitt Bf 109G was used in W.W. 2 by both Hungary and Rumania to great effect...
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PanzerKing
Posted on December 13, 2003 05:06 pm
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Yeah it'd be pretty lame to not buy good military equipment just because your former enemy will also purchase it.
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