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> What fighter plane do you think Romania should use?
 
What fighter plane do you think Romania should use?
MIG 29 [ 19 ]  [14.84%]
F 16 [ 28 ]  [21.88%]
a new IAR design, built here [ 36 ]  [28.12%]
JAS-39 [ 59 ]  [46.09%]
Su-27 [ 17 ]  [13.28%]
Mirage 2000 [ 4 ]  [3.12%]
Total Votes: 163
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cuski
Posted on November 13, 2003 10:06 pm
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Fruntas
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The SAAB Draken is an obsolete model.
I think it's rather the SAAB Gripen that should be considered.


Gah! My mistake, I was thinking of the Gripen but I wrote Draken instead :?

I do agree with Victor, I see Romania being oriented towards the west in the coming years (from a military perspective), and mainly because the whole NATO issue. That is why, I don't see russian airplanes being favourites in this race (regardless of whether they are competitive or not). Even Germany chose not to upgrade their small fleet of Mig-29s, which will most likely soon be replaced by the Eurofighter.
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inahurry
Posted on November 16, 2003 07:10 pm
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hmmmmm....

What about this one (Chinese J-10) ?

http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news095.htm
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dead-cat
Posted on November 17, 2003 03:40 pm
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Even Germany chose not to upgrade their small fleet of Mig-29s, which will most likely soon be replaced by the Eurofighter.


it wasn't so much a performance or usability issue, more a problem of operating 3 diffrent aircraft types (phantom, tornado and mig29)
the idea behind eurofighter is to have a single airplane type (to service).

jane's sells a pretty informative book about the mig29, quoting diffrent pilot perspectives. the conclusion was the mig29 suffers from high fuel consumption and antiquated, albeit upgradable electronics, as well as a missing HOTAS system. the mig29 pilot is penalized in the area of situation awareness and depends largely on AWACS and ground-based support. since the plane wasn't really thought to be an all-rounder, it isn't suited for airforces looking for a multi-role fighter plane, despite being a phantastic dogfighter. however, this quality is upset by the very existence of long range AA missiles.
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Der Maresal
Posted on November 17, 2003 05:11 pm
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hmmmmm....

What about this one (Chinese J-10) ?
http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news095.htm


This is China's most modern military plane - It is similar to the Israeli 'Lavi', which in turn was a copy of the F-16 (with foreplanes).

I find it interesting that america's best Friend Israel is cooperating with China (and sold the design plus alot more this this 'potential ennemy of the United States) :shock: :? ..(loyalty and friendship is not so important in this world where profit is everything.)

*If I remeber correctly the first Prototype J-10 crashed and killed the pilot.
The problem linked to the flight controll system. This has been corrected, and the plane is making progress.
There are a few reason why the plane has not attracted international attention - I think it's because China is not regarded as a country with Airforce tradition (and also the oppinion that everything Made in China is not so good), plus the fact the plane was kept secret for a long time.
It is a very good aircraft however - It can carry plenty of Armanent - It is better then the F-16, being more maneuvrable because of it's canard wings.
Romania however cannot buy this aircraft (nor will it ever) since doing so will anger the United States with which it is trying to improve relations.
If relation with the States continue to improve probably the F-16 will become the next plane for the Airforce (which I hope It wont!)
I don't mind buying C-130's , transport planes from America but Fighter aircraft - no! It's very much a political decision as to which plane we will have in the future.
My oppinion is that the bulk of the Airforce should have second hand, 2nd or 3rd Generation planes (Mig 21, Mig 29, IAR) ...and only a few "Crack" pilots - the Elite should be flying a small number of 4th Generation very Modern aircraft. (Eurofighter, Grippen, Mirage2000-5) - We should use the rest of the budget to build up our air defence System.
Instead of buying Fighters worth millions of dollars - we could buy a great number of air defence units and missiles. These things are very lethal today. 8)
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Victor
Posted on November 17, 2003 08:19 pm
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The possibility of buying J-10s is null, simply because the CHinese won't sell them. They probably need every single one of them that will comeout of the assembly lines.

I also think that we do not need more than 3-4 squadrons of modern fighters (the JAS-39 let's hope). We could also use the IAR-99 Soim in ground attack roles.

PS: the recent Lockheed radars that we bought strengthened the air defense.
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Indrid
Posted on November 17, 2003 10:10 pm
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how about buying some ww2 stukas instead? i bet they would be better than those MIG's.

A romanian plane sounds pretty good too, but we all know when that's gonna happen :shock:
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inahurry
Posted on November 17, 2003 10:22 pm
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Maresal, in the article itís said the Lavi story was probably a cover-up while the Chinese really came out with a very different plane. Thereís also no hint the Israelis are in any way involved. Since Israel lately supports India I think Chinese-Israeli military cooperation, especially within a project like this which could be interpreted as a threat by the Indians, is a delicate matter. I wouldnít dismiss the possibility although it would be puzzling. Strategic plans usually have different layers and some may not be intelligible from outside. The so-called Shanghai pact, which could be view as a large framework for a possible Russian-Chinese alliance and the agreement Russia will provide know-how while China brings the money could have more to do than the Israelis but itís just my speculation. The J-10 may very well be an entirely Chinese project.

Iím not sure why the link doesnít work directly but if you paste the address in browser it should work.

Victor, in the same article it is suggested the J-10 might be the new Mig-21 or F-16 in terms of sales to foreign airforces. Iím sure China has the financial potential to make enough of those planes to sell abroad, if they prove good. Iím not sure how large could be its foreign market when political limitations are taken into account but I can think of a few countries. Surely, it would put a lot of pressure on other competitors.
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88mm
Posted on November 19, 2003 11:00 am
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Although a MIG 29 is good choise, I voted for SU 27. Why? Because to my best knowledge at this time only India is still manufacturing the plane, and in sale are only the A and B models. The russians are not selling the latest models with improved (wery improved) avionics. The same thing applies to SU 27, you can only buy the first models. You will say then why budher to buy an more expensive fighter like the SU 27. My argument is that the SU 27 can be equiped vith long range AA missiles. This way you'll have a strategic fighter good for close combat, long range combat and for air ground strikes. About a new romanian IAR model, low chances. The IAR 99 , which was such a succes, is copy from a british model. So untill now we haven't been able to create our own design at todays standards. Plus a new fighter project extends on a wery long period of time.
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Victor
Posted on November 19, 2003 04:22 pm
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The IAR 99 , which was such a succes, is copy from a british model. So untill now we haven't been able to create our own design at todays standards


Where did you get that idea?

The engine is indeed a British design (Rolls Royce Viper), but an antique one (the 60s), for which we bought the license in the 70s, to equip the IAR 93.
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Der Maresal
Posted on November 19, 2003 06:08 pm
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......The russians are not selling the latest models with improved (wery improved) avionics.


Who sais they are not selling it? The improved Mig was created during the late 1980's. There are two main versions. Mig 29K for the Navy (made to serve on russian Kiev Carrier) - and my vaforite - the Mig-29M ground attack version. It is intended for the export market - so I read that they are selling it. (Maybe they don't want to sell it to us - that something else), but It's no secret anymore and Ivan is in need of money.

(IMG:http://dautremont.chez.tiscali.fr/jets/Mig29m_2.jpg)
I put the Mig29M ahead of Grippen or Eurofighter, - it is cheaper and just as usefull - It has that menacing look that is typical of the Mig29 familly.
You can buy many of these much cheaper then you would if you purchesed SAAB Grippen or Euro... These are museum pieces - they are not worth it.

Why is the Mirage not on the list? Who sais it's a bad plane? Our current relations with France may be sour, but the plane itself isn't! :idea:



(IMG:http://dautremont.chez.tiscali.fr/aviation.gif)
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dead-cat
Posted on November 20, 2003 09:10 am
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put the Mig29M ahead of Grippen or Eurofighter, - it is cheaper and just as usefull - It has that menacing look that is typical of the Mig29 familly.  


i'm afraid that's not quite true unless you're looking for a pure interceptor and can live with the small range.

it's no secret that MiG has financial problems and maybe will disspear from the warplane market. sukhoi got the much better part of gov. contracts after 1990 (they don't build necessarily the better airplanes) through lobbying and whatnot.
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88mm
Posted on November 21, 2003 09:28 am
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http://www.farnborough-live.co.uk/airshow/.../red_arrow.html
This is the British model I was talking about Victor.
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Victor
Posted on November 21, 2003 02:05 pm
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Going by the same logic we could say that the MiG-AT was also a copy of the BAe Hawk or even of the IAR 99.
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mabadesc
Posted on November 22, 2003 06:33 pm
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I know this is a thread about fighter jets, but the "modern romanian army" thread is kind of dead..

Anyway, does someone have more info about the following romanian artillery system? What kind of reviews did it receive? Good, I hope. The quote is from Jane's Land Forces Weekly Report:

"Romanian artillery system revealed
The ATROM 155mm/52-cal self-propelled artillery system was shown for the first time during the Expomil 2003 international defence exhibition in Bucharest earlier this month.
[Jane's Defence Weekly - first posted to http://jdw.janes.com - 14 November 2003]"
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Victor
Posted on November 22, 2003 08:50 pm
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