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> ww2 nazi man from Romania
Dénes
Posted: June 02, 2008 10:52 am
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QUOTE (New Connaught Ranger @ June 02, 2008 11:38 am)
...legally that makes the man born in Sibiu, a Austro-Hungarian of German decent.

AFAIK, after 1867, citizens of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy had either Austrian or Hungarian citizenship, never "Austro-Hungarian". Therefore the legal term for a person being "Austro-Hungarian" is nonsense. The closest would be an Austrian or Hungarian citizen of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy of a particular ethnicity.

Gen. Dénes
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dead-cat
Posted: June 03, 2008 09:09 am
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my grandmother, born 1902, had "Austria-Hungary" written on her certificate of birth, there was no mentioning of Hungarian (or any other) citizenship on that piece of paper.

actually, Phleps held the rank of a Lt. General in the Romanian army during the interwar years.
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New Connaught Ranger
Posted: June 03, 2008 10:22 am
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Perhaps it would have been better for me to have written:

...legally that makes the man born in Sibiu, a Austro or Hungarian of German decent.

Kevin in Deva. :D

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dead-cat
Posted: June 03, 2008 02:06 pm
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are we speaking about ethnicity? then the man was a transsylvanian saxon, therefore german.
citizenship? austro-hungarian at birth, later romanian. don't know if he bothered to ask for the german one, he would have probably received it without problems.

afaik his son used to be a medic in stuttgart.
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Ferdinand
Posted: June 03, 2008 06:37 pm
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QUOTE (dead-cat @ June 03, 2008 02:06 pm)
are we speaking about ethnicity? then the man was a transsylvanian saxon, therefore german.
citizenship? austro-hungarian at birth, later romanian. don't know if he bothered to ask for the german one, he would have probably received it without problems.


well said my friend! thanks :)
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Dénes
Posted: June 03, 2008 07:34 pm
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QUOTE (dead-cat @ June 03, 2008 03:09 pm)
my grandmother, born 1902, had "Austria-Hungary" written on her certificate of birth, there was no mentioning of Hungarian (or any other) citizenship on that piece of paper.

That note in your Grandmother's birth certificate refers to the state she was born in, not her citizenship.

If you 'google' the terms, you will find several legally relevant sites where the fact that 'Austro-Hungarian' citizenship never existed. It was either Austrian, or Hungarian.
E.g.,

Subject: Austro-Hungarian citizenship
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:58:46 -0800

Technically you are right. Back in 1907 and until 1918 you were Austrian citizen or Hungarian citizen in the dual Monarchy of Austro-Hungary.

At the same time you were stating your ethnicity also. I was just assuming that Allison's ancestors were ethnic German (Donauschwaben), as she happened to be on this excellent list.

Rosina
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From: Carsten Laekamp
To: BANAT-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:52 AM
Subject: Re: [BANAT-L] Ivanda village
Rosina Schmidt wrote:
> Allison;
>
> Your ancestors were ethnic Germans with the citizenship of Austro-Hungary.

Nope. Their citizenship was Hungarian, at least at the time when they
emigrated. There was no Austro-Hungarian citizenship then.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/r...5-02/1108403926


Or,

JSTOR: "They recall that up to 1867 only Austrian citizenship existed. ... [inhabitants] of the [Austro-Hungarian] Empire had either Austrian or Hungarian citizenship, never an Austro-Hungarian. ...
links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-9300(194204)36%3A2%3C292%3A%22%3E2.0.CO%3B2-4 -


And so on...

Also, you're right, Dead-cat, citizenship and ethnicity, or nationality, should never be mixed. Those could be two very distinct notions, defining a person.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on June 03, 2008 07:40 pm
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dead-cat
Posted: June 03, 2008 08:38 pm
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i stand corrected regarding the citizenship, however my first mention about the birth certificate was actually to express my surprise that i saw no specification "citizenship".
speculation: the relevance of this term might be higher today than it used to be in the 19th c, as the issue might have been a bit complicated. for example in case of a person born, let's say in Mainz during the 1850ies, which at that time belonged to the Grand Duchy of Hesse, whose "head of state" again would be the austrian emperor in vienna.

i'm a very casual contributor to that list too.

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Ferdinand
Posted: November 17, 2012 02:49 pm
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watching a Holocaust video i came across this images of Bergen Belsen KZ . And i saw SS medic Fritz Klein (german ethnic from Codlea) carrying bodyies. Also notice the look of his former SS colegue....
From this movie i think are the images with him.


(IMG:http://i.minus.com/j1osQ7PEZ3yaG.JPG)


Later he introcude himself on camera!! :blink:


snap from this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9V6N88qlkI&feature=related

This post has been edited by seeker on November 17, 2012 02:54 pm
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Florin
Posted: November 18, 2012 08:24 am
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The first line of this topic mentioned "guys from german nazi war machine were from romania".

"nazi war machine": this is a very general and wide subject.
Instead of considering all aspects of "nazi war machine", this topic plunged mostly into concentration camps.

I think the most important German from Romania involved into the "nazi war machine" was Hermann Oberth, the expert in rocket engines with liquid fuel.
He was born in Austria-Hungary, indeed (this matter was already addressed in this topic), but he lived 14 years of his life in Mediaş, AFTER Transylvania had become part of Romania. Between 1924 and 1938 he was teaching physics and mathematics at the Stephan Ludwig Roth High School (Mediaş, Romania).

This post has been edited by Florin on November 18, 2012 08:40 am
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Ferdinand
Posted: November 18, 2012 05:57 pm
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QUOTE (Florin @ November 18, 2012 08:24 am)
The first line of this topic mentioned "guys from german nazi war machine were from romania".

"nazi war machine": this is a very general and wide subject.
Instead of considering all aspects of "nazi war machine", this topic plunged mostly into concentration camps.

I think the most important German from Romania involved into the "nazi war machine" was Hermann Oberth, the expert in rocket engines with liquid fuel.
He was born in Austria-Hungary, indeed (this matter was already addressed in this topic), but he lived 14 years of his life in Mediaş, AFTER Transylvania had become part of Romania. Between 1924 and 1938 he was teaching physics and mathematics at the Stephan Ludwig Roth High School (Mediaş, Romania).

Victor, can you modify the topic's title by adding"...from Romania". Thanks in advance!

I started this topic since i came accidentally to some infos about german ethnics from Romania that were involved in ww2 and their name have some echo. I didn't found info's about simple soldiers(german ethnics from RO) carrying grenades boxes...etc.

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21 inf
Posted: November 18, 2012 09:41 pm
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One of the sons of Hermann Oberth was killed on Eastern Front while he served in german army and one of his daughters died while working for german army in a chemistry laboratory in Wien.
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Florin
Posted: November 19, 2012 06:24 am
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QUOTE (21 inf @ November 18, 2012 04:41 pm)
One of the sons of Hermann Oberth was killed on Eastern Front while he served in german army and one of his daughters died while working for german army in a chemistry laboratory in Wien.

His daughter died because of an an accidental explosion at a liquid oxygen plant where she was in August 1944. Liquid oxygen was one of the two ingredients used by V-2, and V-2 was the project where Hermann Oberth joined to offer his expertise.
I am assuming that his daughter got that job due to his relations. Add to that that without the V-2 program there would be no need for liquid oxygen plants, and imagine how Hermann Oberth could feel about all this matter. He could feel responsible of the death of his own child.
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