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> KURSK - the greatest tank battle of World War 2, Video too.....
dead-cat
Posted: January 21, 2009 09:37 am
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QUOTE (petru32 @ January 21, 2009 12:50 am)
I think the Russian suffered terrible loses against Army Group Sud during Kursk battle.
Dead Cat, concerning the loses suffered by the German Army there are I have two questions
1. In the forces available for the 2 SS PZCorp there are included also the number of tanks received as reinforcement at the end of each day

it gives the number of tanks operational at the start of each day. if tanks with minor damages have been repaired through the day, or reinforcements have arrived, they will be reflected in the figures for the next day.

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2. Does it also includes the number of panzer recovered at the end of each day and repaired.

see above.
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Also Dead Cat you should take in to consideration the fact that 2 SS PZCorp was considered an elite unit so it received more vehicles than the units of the 48PZCorp so it is normal to see that the forces available for each day are a level near the of the first day of battle.

from the start of Citadel until the 19th, 45 PZ IV, 12 Panthers and 17 Tigers have been dispatched for the EF. the Pz.IVs had "Army Group Center" as destination and were distributed among units. the Panthers went to Pz. Reg 39 and only the Tigers are "guaranteed" for the 2nd Pz. Korps. None would arrive before late July. Therefore, there wern't many reinfocements, certainly not to level the claimed huge losses.
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The initial objective of the German offensive was Oboyan and not Prohorovka the reason of the changing of the objective was the dense mine field and multiple lines with plenty of infantry tank hunters which made the advance to Oboyan almost impossible.
Tthe German Army being in offensive was able to recover all its damaged vehicles and send them to repair units while the Russians being in retreat were forced to abandon their. You will see that as soon as the Germans started to lose more tanks as the crew has the habit to leave an immobilize tank.

when the german army was on the offensive, they would have and easier time of recovering damaged vehicles and so they did, extensively. that however, was not disputed. disputed were the, often claimed, huge losses in german tanks. which, at a closer look, wern't so huge. last, Adolf did not call of citadel, as soviets used to claim, because of prochorovka, but because of Husky. which sort of reinforces Mannstein's claim, that things actually wern't going so bad after all during citadel.

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Tactical victory?! It was a victory, but without relevance in the "bigger picture", as the Russians could (and would) replace their losses, whereas the Germans didn't.

tanks& assault guns on the EF on 30 June 1943: 3.432
tanks& assault guns on the EF on 31 Dec 1943: 3.356

the german army, despite having to man a new front in italy, and having fought heavy engagements for the last 6 months, had fewer than 80 tanks less on the EF than at the end of a 3 month buildup for citadel, which is the lowest casualty quarter for the entire war on the EF. more, the % of newer, more capable tanks, was higher than in june.

This post has been edited by dead-cat on January 21, 2009 09:56 am
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MMM
Posted: January 21, 2009 10:38 am
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Where do you get these figures (numbers, i. e.)? I mean, what source are you relying upon that you trust its exactity to the last unit? :ph34r:
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dead-cat
Posted: January 21, 2009 01:30 pm
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Panzer-Lage Ost file BA-MA RH 10/61 and StuG-Lage Ost file BA-MA RH 10/62 as published in "Kursk 1943, A statistical analysis" by Niklas Zetterling and Anders Frankson.
With other words, quoted from the original reporting records of the german army, available for everyone to check, in the Freiburg archive.

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MMM
Posted: January 21, 2009 03:06 pm
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My respects, dead-cat! Using archive sources is the most reliable way to the truth. Especially German achives. I envy your access to those... :(
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dead-cat
Posted: January 21, 2009 04:26 pm
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*I* did not go to Freiburg. the authors of the book from which i quoted did.
the focus of my personal interest is 16th-19th century. my interest in WW2 is only marginal.

This post has been edited by dead-cat on January 21, 2009 04:27 pm
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MMM
Posted: January 21, 2009 06:57 pm
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I see... How did you get the book? Don't tell me of Amazon, please :roll:
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dead-cat
Posted: January 21, 2009 08:31 pm
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well, actually it was from amazon. it's where i buy 95% of my books, lately spending ridiculous amounts on Cornwell's "Sharpe" and PĂ©rez-Reverte's "Capitan Alatriste" series.
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MMM
Posted: January 22, 2009 07:58 am
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Cornwell's "Sharpe"

I just finished looking at all 13 episodes of the "old" series w/ Sean Bean. I downloaded them illegaly from a torrent site. B) B) B)
As for the Amazon, you are NOT from Romania. To here, it is difficult to command anything...
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dead-cat
Posted: January 22, 2009 09:51 am
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let's discuss this here.
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MMM
Posted: January 22, 2009 10:57 am
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QUOTE
let's discuss this here.
It does NOT work. Maybe 24 pages are all we get.
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Victor
Posted: January 22, 2009 11:47 am
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QUOTE (MMM @ January 22, 2009 12:57 pm)
QUOTE
let's discuss this here.
It does NOT work. Maybe 24 pages are all we get.

It does not work, because it is in the General Discussion section where you don't have access yet (see http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=4573)
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cainele_franctiror
Posted: January 23, 2009 07:51 am
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Did anyone check this book? All I know is that is a new one.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/076...ilitaryhistoryo
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MMM
Posted: January 23, 2009 11:07 am
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I never heard of him til now, but from a closer look (on the Amazon), one can see he wrote some books about ww2, Germany and its tank forces. I'll have to check more on him... however, I don't see the relevance of the book in the context of our topic. Do you think there is anything in the book about Tigers at Kursk? After all, there were only 133 Tigers there...
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dead-cat
Posted: January 23, 2009 11:44 am
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146 actually.
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MMM
Posted: January 24, 2009 02:58 pm
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Great difference, this is! A heavy tanks company, no more!
I began talking like Yoda... :lol:

This post has been edited by MMM on January 30, 2009 05:04 pm
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