Picture of the Day - "Progress" in Iraq / Update

[cnflyboy2000]

[quote="mabadesc"]Your reply does nothing but prove exactly what I was trying to convince you in my previous posts: Military service records do not qualify or disqualify a person from the presidency. Being a war hero has nothing to do with being a good (or bad) president.
_____________________________________
I'm convinced. But I'd say these records seem to have a great deal to do with getting elected to that office. And with credibility. Both sides r falling over themselves trying to find something to discredit the other with in this department, I'm sure u have observed.

Not to beat a dead horse, but it's obviously gonna be more advantageous for B. to compare his service record (assuming they ever find it) with C's than with K's. Call/implicate me anything u want, but that comparison is the one u were making, it seemed to me.

I thought we were talking about the present race. I just do not see the point of dragging other past office holders into it, Republican or Dem.

Unless u want to discuss the larger point of which party harbors the greater number of worthy/credible/"good" candidates. (or past officeholders) I'd imagine that would comprise a new thread.

[mabadesc]

QUOTE

Both sides r falling over themselves trying to find something to discredit the other with in this department, I'm sure u have observed.

Cnflyboy, I completely agree with you, and I'm sure you'll also agree that both candidates have made their share of mistakes...

Now, to slightly switch the subject, you expressed outrage (and rightly so) when someone suggested that the American who was recently decapitated in Irak was a victim of masked CIA men who tried to reverse public opinion.

Your reply was:

QUOTE

If this is a widely held view, I'd say the U.S. has got more credibility problems than i'd imagined in MY worst nightmare.

I'm just as outraged as you are, but the sad thing is, you'd be surprised how much anti-american conspiracy-theories are widely circulated in Europe.

For instance, last year I used to contribute to a French political forum hosted by "Le Figaro". I couldn't believe my eyes: At least half (50%) of the French folks on the forum thought that the 9/11 WTC plane attacks were organized by the CIA or by the Mossad in order to swing public opinion against Muslims! And in the same forum, while the Iraki war was going on, a good two-thirds of the contributors were rooting for Saddam winning the war and were happy whenever there were news of American soldiers being killed in combat.

Heck, did you know that even in our forum here (the WWII forum), there were 3 or 4 members which believed the same theory about 9/11? Fortunately, these members haven't contributed in the last few months, and I believe a couple of them were also banned for other motives.

Also, I remember, during the war, the newspaper headlines in France, Germany, even some in Great Britain, were out of this world.....American tanks were already in Baghdad and these newspapers were talking about how Saddam's army is pushing back the US troops and basically how Saddam is winning the war!

Anyway, I've always been patriotic towards the US, but after spending a few months in Europe last year and noticing all these rampant, extreme anti-american feelings and twisting of the facts pushed beyond absurdity, well, ever since then I've become even more patriotic.

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

Also, I remember, during the war, the newspaper headlines in France, Germany, even some in Great Britain, were out of this world.....American tanks were already in Baghdad and these newspapers were talking about how Saddam's army is pushing back the US troops and basically how Saddam is winning the war!

Pardon ?

:laugh: :laugh:

You must have held the newspapers upside down.

QUOTE

Anyway, I've always been patriotic towards the US, but after spending a few months in Europe last year and noticing all these rampant, extreme anti-american feelings and twisting of the facts pushed beyond absurdity, well, ever since then I've become even more patriotic.

Oh, no ! The usual neo-con talk, Mabadesc no... not you, pliiiiiz.

anti Bush administration = anti American
war = peace
jail = freedom
black = white
...

I wonder if you owe more loyalty to Bush than the US consitution. That would be the true patriotism test.

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

For instance, last year I used to contribute to a French political forum hosted by \"Le Figaro\". I couldn't believe my eyes: At least half (50%) of the French folks on the forum thought that the 9/11 WTC plane attacks were organized by the CIA or by the Mossad in order to swing public opinion against Muslims! And in the same forum, while the Iraki war was going on, a good two-thirds of the contributors were rooting for Saddam winning the war and were happy whenever there were news of American soldiers being killed in combat.

Ok. Let's get things straight, once for all.

I'm pissed off by all this primitive anti French hogwash I see blossoming across the atlantic and in the Netherlands (private joke ;-))

I know pretty well the mood, think tank currents, media outlets etc... in France.

What you describe does not represent average French (or western European) feelings. If you would move your ass and come live three months in France this would dawn on you as clearly as morning dew.

Now maybe you prefer to listen to Fox TV or the Figaro forum :?:

[rcristi]

I cannot agree more... Just a fun example about american attitude against the French in general: watch most of the american movies in the past 2-3 years and you'll see lots of French villains.

[mabadesc]

QUOTE

What you describe does not represent average French (or western European) feelings. If you would move your ass and come live three months in France this would dawn on you as clearly as morning dew.

Chandernagore,

I've been a francophile since I learned how to read. In college I was ranked first in the US in a contest for the knowledge of the French language. I hold a Master's degree in French literature and history from Princeton University. I received a Mellon Foundation fellowship and the McMahon/Armstrong Award for my research work at Princeton.
In college, I spent every summer taking classes in France.
I've done graduate research searching for medieval manuscripts in cloisters throughout the south of France.

Ever since I finished grad. school, I still spend at least 3 weeks in Paris every year (including this year).

So I think it's not your place to lecture me and tell me to "get my ass" over to France - especially coming from you, who are afraid to tell people what nationality you are and in what country you live.

The truth is, I am still a francophile, I remain fascinated by their culture and history, but as for the French people themselves - well, let's just say I'm a bit disappointed...

About the "Le Figaro" forum, I invite you to check it out, but check the archives from last year, when the war was going on. You'll see I am telling the truth. Those weren't anti-Bush comments, they were clearly anti-american.

And about your hogwash on how I support Bush, you are false. I support the United States, even more now when it is a country at war. If Clinton was president right now, I would support him too.

P.S. Sorry for posting all the stuff about my education. I wasn't trying to show off, just to establish that I'm qualified to speak about France. I've held enough conversations on the subject with several "Chevaliers des Palmes Academiques" and "Chevaliers de l'Ordre National du Merite", who were knighted by Chirac.

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

Chandernagore, I've been a francophile since I learned how to read.  In college I was ranked first in the US in a contest for the knowledge of the French language.  I hold a Master's degree in French literature and history from Princeton University.  I received a Mellon Foundation fellowship and the McMahon/Armstrong Award for my research work at Princeton. In college, I spent every summer taking classes in France.   I've done graduate research searching for medieval manuscripts in cloisters throughout the south of France.

Good to you. Not too many people can say the same.

QUOTE

So I think it's not your place to lecture me and tell me to \"get my ass\" over to France - especially coming from you, who are afraid to tell people what nationality you are and in what country you live.

I'm European. I told it many times. I have little national ties and even changed nationality once. What specific country I'm living in right now has no bearing on anything so please stay away from this kind of cheap rethoric. Why do you keep coming back with it ?

QUOTE

The truth is, I am still a francophile,

No you're not. If you were, you would know the French people better and you would appreciate or understand the reasons behind the European stand on Irak.

QUOTE

I remain fascinated by their culture and history, but as for the French people themselves - well, let's just say I'm a bit disappointed...

It's your right. But long after this sorry chapter of history will be closed I think that the future will recognize the quality of France international position in this matter and the principles sustaining it. But in fact, most countries on this planet already have. Certainly we can say that EU has endorsed it. And maybe EU relations with the next US administration will improve considerably thanks to France standing fast against the neocon tide today.

Ok. I'm off my soapbox. I thought that someone had to speak out once for France as it was getting dragged into the mud unduly.

QUOTE

About the \"Le Figaro\" forum, I invite you to check it out, but check the archives from last year, when the war was going on.  You'll see I am telling the truth.  Those weren't anti-Bush comments, they were clearly anti-american.

A few dumbasses generating overwhelming local noise on a Figaro forum do not constitute an analysis of French foreign policies or an extensive coverage of the heart & minds of the people.

QUOTE

And about your hogwash on how I support Bush, you are false.  I support the United States, even more now when it is a country at war.  If Clinton was president right now, I would support him too.

My country right or wrong, isn't it ?

[mabadesc]

QUOTE

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote:   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The truth is, I am still a francophile,   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No you're not. If you were, you would know the French people better and you would appreciate or understand the reasons behind the European stand on Irak.

Your logic is flawed, because your statement equates "knowing the French people" to agreeing with them.
I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. I do know the French people quite well(better than you unless you can prove otherwise), and I am a francophile, but I disagree with the strong anti-american feelings currently held by their majority.
You can like someone and disagree with them, you know...

QUOTE

My country right or wrong, isn't it?

When my country is already engaged in war and lives are lost, certainly, yes.
I'm sure as hell not going to support a bunch of terrorists who specialize in decapitating civilians, running planes through buildings, and random suicide bombings.
And please don't ask the typical question "What drove them to do these acts?". Whatever the reason, their actions are not justifiable.

I do sympathize and to a great extent agree with the Palestinians, but don't fool yourself, Al-Qaida and similar groups (including the former Saddam regiime) have nothing to do with the Palestinian cause. These groups simply declared war on the Western Christian world.

[Chandernagore]

QUOTE

I do sympathize and to a great extent agree with the Palestinians, but don't fool yourself, Al-Qaida and similar groups (including the former Saddam regiime) have nothing to do with the Palestinian cause.  These groups simply declared war on the Western Christian world.

Saddam had declared war on the Western Christian world ? I think you're seriously confused. He declared war on Iran and Koweit : two Muslim countries.

The first agression was ok and the West supported it 100%
The second agression was about a country with oil and that was completely unforgivable.

[mabadesc]

QUOTE

Saddam had declared war on the Western Christian world ?

No, admittedly, not directly. But he was a disaster waiting to happen. He clearly hated the US and was going to start harboring, collaborating, and supplying other terrorist groups with weapons or worse, with WMD (yes, I know, the as yet non-existent WMD's).

Plus, let's not forget:

1. The assassination attempt on President Bush organized by him.
2. Breaking armistice terms from the '91 war and ignoring UN warnings 17 times (!)
3. Diverting food-for-oil funds (gee, the word "France" comes to mind)
4. Etc., etc, etc...

Need I go on? Anyway, enough about all this stuff. Chances are we won't agree.

[Indrid]

does anyone know who did it? the murder of that guy in irak?

[PanzerKing]

[quote]does anyone know who did it? the murder of that guy in irak?[/quote]

Don't have a name, but according to the news, he was an Al-Queda that has had contact with Bin Laden.

And for the record: F*ck Bush! I could write an entire book on why this man is a true threat to the world and my own country.

[Chandernagore]

[quote]He clearly hated the US and was going to start harboring, collaborating, and supplying other terrorist groups with weapons or worse, with WMD. [/quote]

If wars are now declared on such loosy ground as who dislikes who et who is supposedly going to do what then you have your well deserved ticket for the biblical Armageddon.

[mabadesc]

[quote]If wars are now declared on such loosy ground as who dislikes who [/quote]

You seem to forget that Saddam's Irak lost a war in 1991. The armistice had some conditions to it.

Irak (Saddam) broke the armistice conditions and received 17 reprimands/ultimatums.

That's solid enough ground...

It's politics at its basics: a country loses a war, signs an armistice. Ceasing hostilities is dependent on the conditions specified in the armistice.
If country ignores armistice, then the cease-fire is cancelled...

[cnflyboy2000]

[quote]does anyone know who did it? the murder of that guy in irak?[/quote]
___________________________________

Which one? There's been quite a few.

I presume u mean the beheading?

It was reported (NYT,5/14/04) that, by voice analysis of the tape, it is "very probably" Zarqawi.

(cf my post, previous pg, this thread)

(btw I'm insulted u don't read my posts) :blbl:

I can send along a email of the article (or others from that paper's archives) if u want it. :cheers: