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> 1919 Romanian offensive, against bolshevism
dead-cat
Posted: January 05, 2010 06:38 pm
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On the other hand in november 1918 the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy was a dying state who was contested by the czech, croats, polish, romanian and even hungarian nations (remember the hungarian revolution on 31 october 1918 in Budapest?), so what are we talking about? What borders? Recognised by who

by the romanian government by signing the treaty of buftea. not the first treaty to be found less worth than the piece of paper it was written on. same goes for napoleon's peace treaty with prussia, the ribentropp-molotov pact, the war of the austrian succession and so forth. or the treaty of versailles as a more recent example.
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contras
Posted: January 05, 2010 06:56 pm
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by the romanian government by signing the treaty of buftea. not the first treaty to be found less worth than the piece of paper it was written on.


If there were not the international conditions, for Romanian treaty of Buftea was not applicable. Because, conform Constitution, a gouvernamental act becames law only after the king, head of state, puts his signature on it. Treaty of Buftea was never signed by king (Ferdinand refused to to it), and never became law, such never was recognised by Romanian state. Period.
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dead-cat
Posted: January 05, 2010 07:17 pm
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you can only get away with tricks like this, when the international situation allows you to. had the spring offensive succeded, Ferdinand would have had no choice, given that the A-H army would have remained intact.
same goes with the Prussian "alliance" with Napoleon.
generally, when a treaty is one sided, it seems to turn out this way. one side calls it a dictate and feel obliged to conform exactly as long as they cannot do anything military about it. this sort of treaties are, as i said, less worth than the piece of paper written on. their lifetimes expires the moment they are not enforceable by military means.
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Dénes
Posted: January 05, 2010 07:46 pm
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Even if we don't take the Buftea peace treaty in consideration (which anyhow only added a 5-6 km strip of land to the existing border, for purely military reasons), there was the pre-1916 border between the Kingdom of Hungary and the Kingdom of Rumania, running across the Carpathian mountains, traced by the Hungarian and Rumanian joint commission in the 1880s (I can look up the exact date, if you wish), and accepted officially by Rumania and the international community as well. By stepping over that border line in November 1918, Rumania committed an armed aggression against its neighbour. Therefore, the Rumanian-Hungarian regional war started with that very day the border was crossed by the first Rumanian troops.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on January 05, 2010 07:55 pm
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contras
Posted: January 05, 2010 08:17 pm
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A map of Romanian troops in advance, started 20 July 1919 since occupation of Hungary.


[URL=http://img52.imageshack.us/i/imagsn.jpg/][IMG]http://img52.imageshack
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contras
Posted: January 05, 2010 08:25 pm
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A map of Romanian troops in advance, started 20 July 1919 since occupation of Hungary.

(IMG:http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/672/imag1j.jpg)(IMG:http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/imag1j.jpg/1/w1695.png)
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ANDREAS
Posted: January 06, 2010 09:30 pm
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By stepping over that border line in November 1918, Rumania committed an armed aggression against its neighbour.

God be blessed, that they did! Otherwise we were still a province of Hungary today...
Seriously speaking, because the first romanian troops have entered in Transylvania in 10/23 november 1918 and Austro-Hungary surrendered to the Allied Powers in 3/16 november 1918, we can't speak, from a Legal point of view, about an romanian agression act. And again, agression over a country in which a big part of his population amounted to fight for independence (see the czech, croat, polish, romanian and even hungarian nations), including the population of the province in which the romanian troops entered, is a little hazardous claim...
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21 inf
Posted: January 07, 2010 05:50 am
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The "romanian military agresion" from late 1918 was confirmed in 1 December 1918 as being the will of all Romanians from Transylvania, Banat, Crisana, Maramures and parts of so called Partium by the plebiscit (Marea Adunare Nationala) from Alba Iulia. As far as I know, this was the ONLY plebiscite from former AH organised by a former "minority", as no one else (serbs, czechs, slovacs etc.) procedeed in the same manner when they raised their own national state back in 1918. The others just simply declared thru their politicians voices that they broke apart from AH. A "minor" detail, atacked recently when Kosovo declared indepence by plebiscit....
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contras
Posted: January 07, 2010 09:36 am
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there was the pre-1916 border between the Kingdom of Hungary and the Kingdom of Rumania, running across the Carpathian mountains, traced by the Hungarian and Rumanian joint commission in the 1880s (I can look up the exact date, if you wish), and accepted officially by Rumania and the international community as well. By stepping over that border line in November 1918, Rumania committed an armed aggression against its neighbour. Therefore, the Rumanian-Hungarian regional war started with that very day the border was crossed by the first Rumanian troops.


In 1916, Romania and Antanta (UK, France, Russia, Italy and others) signed a treaty who recognise Romania's rights for Transylvania and Bukovina. From that date, the 1880's line of frontier was not recognised by Antanta. Romania crossed that line in 15 August 1916, as a result of a war declaration.
In November 1918, AH cease to exist. Every nation is claimed his souveragnity, including Hungarians. The 1880s frontier was between Romania and AH. AH didn't exist any more. You want so say that 1880s line was in November 1918 between Romania and Hungary?
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21 inf
Posted: January 07, 2010 02:43 pm
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As it were austrian military units, hungarian military units (and if I rem well, mixed AH military units) in AH, one may consider (?) that there was a distinction between Hungary's border and AH border, but this is just my suposition. Even if there was a distinct and separate border between AH and Hungarian border, it doesnt change the idea that drove Romania into war and the 1 December 1918 plebiscite: the union of all romanians from the teritories inhabited by them in AH monarchy with Romania. Agresion or not, the romanian goal was Great Romania, as dreamed since forever by generations and generations of romanians.
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contras
Posted: January 08, 2010 06:14 pm
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I've read some days ago, and I do not remember the topic or the member who asked, that this member detained some memories and dates of somebody who fought in Reg 3 Rosiori, entered Budapest, and he was awarded in fight at Bereteu. He asked some informations about this regiment.
Maybe this will be helpfull to him, if it find my post, I please him to let me know, and give the adress of his requesting post, on topic or PM. Thank you.
Now, the informations I've found:
Reg 3 Rosiori, in 1919 war, was under comand of col. Odobescu Grigore, second in comand, lt. col. Dobrescu Al. and was composed by:
Divizion I, maj. Ganea P., with Esc 1, slt. Giuritescu N, and Esc 2, slt Zamfir I,
Divizion II (please, do not make confusion with the term Division), Major Slavescu V., with Esc 3 Lt Dan V, and Esc 4, Lt Arghir N.
Mitr. Group, cpt Catuneanu P.
Reg 3 Rosiori was part of 6th Rosiori Brigade, under comand of Col. Odobescu Gr.
This brigade was part of 1st Cavalry Division, led by Gen Scarisoreanu R.
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