Suvorov books, ww-2

As usual, MMM, you don't read my words, and come with some conclusions.
I must explain myself to you, again.

I don't said that I'm agree with Rezun or it is a proof of endurance, or if was wise or not.

The context it was about the strenght or the weakness of Soviet Army. I said that the truth is somewhere in the middle, and RA was not so weak as Glantz said (I took it from Victor's quotte, I'm don't find Glantz's books until now), and not so strong that Rezun said.

I give examples, as Halhin Gol and Winter War, where they lost 1 million men, but achieved their objective. It was not wise, not strategical, beyond any human mind, to loose 1 million men just like that.

IMO, Winter War was for Stalin just a test.
He wanted to test his army, to force it beyond any human capability, and see how much this army can carry on. And Red Army passed the test.

Of course, with commisaires Nagans on the back of the every soldier skul.
Red Army lost 1 million men in inhuman environment, and the soldiers didn't revolt, attacked the enemy when Stalin said so, and so on. Now, this army was ready for Stalin's plans.

An involontary test for Stalin! You should notice that was the first and last time that the Red Army had a frontal winter offensive. I think it was the Darwinian principle - survival of the fittest - for the Winter War!
AFAIK, the Halhin Gol losses were a joke compared with the Winter War and the rest of ww2 offensives:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khalkhin_Gol
One more thing: the Mannerheim line was "stabbed" in less than a month, when the Soviets decided to wage a serious all-out war, finally! The fact that Anglo-French intervention came closer also helped the Soviets to try and end faster the conflict...
And I do read your words and also beyond them, for I'm the keeper of the purple flame
(remember Lord Of The Rings I, the scene with Gandalf and the Balrog?)

Later edit: funny thing about Khalkhin Gol: it seems that only G. Jukov (Zhukov) finally survived from the participating generals from both sides; the other Soviets were purged and executed in oct. 1941 and the Japanese, of course, committed suicide later, in 1940.

This post has been edited by MMM on February 18, 2010 09:04 pm

I refered at losses and test just for Winter War, not Halhin Gol.

What is this? If it (Stalin's plan for attacking Germany and Romania) was just a theory of a traitor -Rezun- than why is it mentioned in the newspaper of the soviet Communist Party? And in what context was it mentioned? The anniversary festivities related to end of World War II. This was no joke and this plans were real... but are still kept secret! Why? Find your own answers to this question!

Theoretically speaking if the soviet industry managed to keep the production program required, the Soviet army have had available nearly 4,000 T-34 at the end 1941. Not to talk about the heavy KV tanks. Surely it's just theoretical... And surely the germans wouldn't just wait... but without an opponent the germans will never improved their PzIII or PzIV, not to think about other types...

This statement was given by the soviet general short time after his capture and surely before his cohabitation with the germans... And as a commander of the soviet 4th Mechanised Corps we can imagine that Vlasov had informations related to a presumed soviet attack plan against Germany and his allies.

Yet the German buildup in the East was known weeks before the start of Barbarossa. Rumors about an impending attack against the SU also intensified 2 weeks before the start of Barbarossa. If the SU had already prepared for 6 months and was willing to attack why didn't it preempt the Germans?

a ) Because it wasn't ready yet?
b ) Because Stalin refused to believe Hitler would be such a fool to commit a suicide attack?
c ) Because they waited to be attacked so that they won't look - again - like the bad guys?
Or d) - any or all of the above


This post has been edited by MMM on February 19, 2010 08:42 pm

The answer is extremely simple: NO. The Red Army was not ready for an offensive in June-July. Read D. Glantz's Stumbling Clossus to get a glimpse in what poor state the Red Army was in the summer of 1941, thanks also to the "military genius" Stalin. Realiatically,it was not capable of mounting an offensive and even if it did, it would have probably been more disastrous than the German onslaught that historically happened.

You and others here seem extremely convinced that had the Red Army attacked in July 1941 it would have been simple walk in the park in Bukovina, due to the "magical" surprise effect or God knows what, because I haven't seen so far any solid arguments supported by numbers.

Let's look at the forces there:
- 96th Mountain Rifle Division: 8,477 men
- 60th Mountain Rifle Division: 8,313 men
- 164th Rifle Division: 9,930 men

These were, according to ANDREAS, going to punch a hole in the Romanian defense through which the barely functioning T-26s of the 39th Tank Division (or the entire 16th Mechanized Corps according to some here) were going to pass through and create destruction and mayheam all the way to Focsani. Right? brushing aside the fact that these machines broke down very often and the Soviets didn't have enough repair crews or even enough fuel trucks (and many other things, like full stocks of ammunition) to support such a long and deep armored offensive, why would any of you disconsider the Romanian oppostion so easily? This is what is bothering me.

Let's take a look, only the 3 mountain brigades, with over 12,000 men each were more numerous than the light infantry force the Soviets had in Bukovina. The 7th Infantry Division was around 18,000 men strong and the 8th Cavalry Brigade, from memory, had around 7-8,000 men. That's around 62,000 men, highly motivated and, more than half of them, very well trained. Seriously, think about it.

That is the problem: it's not about opinions, it's about facts. So far I have seen only opinions either personal or quotes from Vlasov and Pravda. If you guys want to have a discussion based solely on opinions, feel free to do it on other forums, not here.

What is this? If it (Stalin's plan for attacking Germany and Romania) was just a theory of a traitor -Rezun- than why is it mentioned in the newspaper of the soviet Communist Party? And in what context was it mentioned? The anniversary festivities related to end of World War II. This was no joke and this plans were real... but are still kept secret! Why? Find your own answers to this question!

It's written in the Pravda, then it must be true! I will throw away all the serious research on the subject! It's useless!

Theoretically speaking if the soviet industry managed to keep the production program required, the Soviet army have had available nearly 4,000 T-34 at the end 1941. Not to talk about the heavy KV tanks. Surely it's just theoretical... And surely the germans wouldn't just wait... but without an opponent the germans will never improved their PzIII or PzIV, not to think about other types...

And this only goes to show that the Soviet Union was upgrading its forces, which was only natural, no that it was getting ready to attack in July 1941. Wedo not know what Stalin would have done in 1942 with a Red Army much more prepaired for an offensive, but that is another discussion.

That would make them mountain divisions not brigades.
As far as i know the romanian mountain brigades had 6 mountain hunters batalions and the cavalry brigades 9 cavalry batalions.

This post has been edited by osutacincizecisidoi on February 20, 2010 01:26 pm

Right! If we stay to analyze the actions of Soviet troops during the occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina in July 1940 -ok, with no romanian military opposition!- than we can imagine that such a thing is not inconceivable! The two soviet moto -mechanized divisions -39th armored and 240th motorised were more than enough to deal with our ill-equipped brigades from the area. The 208 light T-26 tanks, 5 BA armored cars, 528 trucks and 50 tractors of the 39th Division (9342 men in mid-july 1941, after fightings!) could be enough to reach Focsani with the aid of the forces of the 240th Division (9847 men in mid-july 1941) to secure their flanks. Of course the Soviet forces from Bessarabia would not stayed to wach all this, but engage the german -romanian troops on Pruth river... is this so impossible to imagine? Remember july 1940!

Which are Mr. Glantz sources? The soviet oficial ones. I repeat, oficial. Because, all we know, Russia (Soviet Union) is the only country who don't opened his ww2 archives. So, Glantz theories are based by Soviet oficial version, who deny Stalin intention to attack west since 1945 even present day.

Which are Suvorov/Rezun sources? GRU archives, where he worked few years. (He mentioned in his memory book, Cenusa fara epoleti, as I remember). This archives are secrets even today. He cannot, of course, stil some documents, because he defected few years later, from Viena. During his duty at archives, he had no intention to defect to West.

Yeah, Contras, but is he believable? Is Rezun interested in the "historical truth", un-biased, "sine ira et stultorum" or is he interested to sell his books - and thus to write them in a most sensational and controversial manner?
Re: Victor: those Soviet divisions were incomplete, but the question which I ask (rhetorically) is "WHY"? Why were they incomplete? Why isn't it plausible that they were to be completed until a posterior D-Day (July or August, whatever)?
And another rhetorical question: why did Stalin have such masive forces in 1940, led by Jukov, a star-to-be (but still in 1940 a good general) and then in 1941 there were just "remains" and weak forces? I'm talking of the Red Army at our borders, Bukovine AND Bessarabia!