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> Suvorov books, ww-2
Victor
Posted: February 17, 2010 07:28 am
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QUOTE (osutacincizecisidoi @ February 16, 2010 04:22 pm)
That would mean exposing the direction of the attack from the start. We would have deploied more divisions there and they would lose the surprise element.

I am sorry, but this argument makes absolutely no sense to me in the given conditions. The Red Army was strong enough to concentrate a large amount of forces so that they wouldn't need the "element of surprise" if they wished to attack in June 1941, as Rezun claims. Yet they didn't and is only logically to presume that they were not planning the attack in June 1941.

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Victor
Posted: February 17, 2010 07:43 am
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QUOTE (MMM @ February 16, 2010 03:56 pm)
Why else would have we (Romanian forces - and Germans attacking from Romania) waited two weeks after june 22-nd?

The OKW did not consider that the forces it had at its disposal in Romania were strong enough to initiate an offensive on their own. Thus the idea was to wait for the bulk of Army Group South to bypass the Prypyiat Marshes and then swing south, so that the relatively strong Soviet forces in the area be attacked from two directions and pose less of a challenge to the weaker Romanian-German Army Group.

In Bessarabia, Tiulenev, the CO of the 9th Army overestimated the strength of the forces it had in front of him and started to retreat towards the Stalin Line, while the 12th Army was retreating from Northern Bukovina. This led to the capture of the Northern part of Bessarabia in several days after the initiation of the ground offensive. STAVKA canceled the order and set the line of the Prut as the new target for the 9th Army. It was already tool ate for this and the Axis managed to capture most of the center of Bessarabia, including Chisinau.

After the German 11th Army (including the 3rd Romanian Army) forced the Stalin Line and crossed the Dnestr and with the 1st Panzer Group and 17th Army sweeping down from the North behind the Soviet forces, Stavka ordered the 9th Army to evacuate Southern Bessarabia.
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MMM
Posted: February 17, 2010 07:47 am
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So the retreat was a local, operational decision? If so, this changes many theories, but it has to be proved! Was Tiulenev executed later, by any chance?
I'm still not sure whwther the Soviet dispositive in june 1941 was offensive or defensive. Suvorov/Rezun claims it was offensive - and many other things are concurring to this theory. Is it so?
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Victor
Posted: February 17, 2010 07:47 am
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QUOTE (ANDREAS @ February 17, 2010 12:03 am)
According to the map mentioned above, in 22 june 1941 in Northern Bukovina, stayed in position two soviet infantry/mountain divisions and one tank division - with 209 light tanks T-26 (two thirds of them being operable in july 1941), with another mountain division capable of intervention when needed. On our side of the border stayed three mountain brigades, one cavalry brigade and one infantry division. It's obvious that the soviet forces in the area (Northern Bukovina) were strong enough to initiate when necessary an offensive action towards Romania... even in the absence of other mechanised units.

Those forces did not outnumber the Romanian ones, by a sufficient margin (if they actually outnumbered them at all - some calculations need to be done). In my opinion it is not that obvious that they were strong enough to initiate a serious offensive towards Romania.
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Victor
Posted: February 17, 2010 07:51 am
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QUOTE (MMM @ February 17, 2010 09:47 am)
If so, this changes many theories, but it has to be proved! Was Tiulenev executed later, by any chance?
I'm still not sure whwther the Soviet dispositive in june 1941 was offensive or defensive. Suvorov/Rezun claims it was offensive - and many other things are concurring to this theory. Is it so?

Read David Glantz's book on Operation Barbarossa. It's not fiction like Rezun's "work", but based on real documents researched in the Russian archive by a professional American military historian. There really is no comparison between the two. Altough everyone is entitled to its own opinion, I would appreciate it if here we would see more seriously sourced information (please do not consider Rezun a "source").
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MMM
Posted: February 17, 2010 07:53 am
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I tried to find Glantz or Gorodetsky, but... in vain! Not on the Net, nor in libraries... Please give "us" a source, because Rezun can be found everywhere!
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Imperialist
Posted: February 17, 2010 08:17 am
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You can find a lot of D. Glantz books on Amazon.
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osutacincizecisidoi
Posted: February 17, 2010 09:00 am
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QUOTE (Victor @ February 17, 2010 07:28 am)
The Red Army was strong enough to concentrate a large amount of forces so that they wouldn't need the "element of surprise" if they wished to attack in June 1941, as Rezun claims.


I disagree.
The t-26 and bt are not amphibious. They would need to attack the same way we deed : capture the bridgeheads over the Prut and expand them . Only afterward they could commit they're armor to the fight.
But we were ready and we had more infantry divisions to repeal them.
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MMM
Posted: February 17, 2010 10:50 am
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QUOTE (Imperialist @ February 17, 2010 08:17 am)
You can find a lot of D. Glantz books on Amazon.

Oh, thanks a lot! Why didn't I think of it? I mean, of course I'd very much like to pay a lot and wait for two-three weeks for some book!
Or not?
In the meantime, I've found the PDF version of Glantz "Hitler's invasion ..."
For free and right now :)
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Imperialist
Posted: February 17, 2010 05:10 pm
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Paying around 50$ on a book is not a lot. Even if financially things are not great one can still save 20$ (meager amount) out of one's monthly wage and be able to buy a good book in 2-3 months' time. In 3-years' time (length of university education nowadays) one can build a decent bibliography. Provided one actually needs it or badly wants it. Of course, it's easier to steal.
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guina
Posted: February 17, 2010 06:15 pm
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Imp,a bit harsh,eh?
Any idea how much earns a teacher nowdays?
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Imperialist
Posted: February 17, 2010 07:50 pm
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QUOTE (guina @ February 17, 2010 06:15 pm)
Imp,a bit harsh,eh?
Any idea how much earns a teacher nowdays?

I don't think it's harsh at all. Their private tutoring systems are highly lucrative and tax exempt and if they're not involved in that they can cut down their consumption of cigarettes and in some cases booze.

This post has been edited by Imperialist on February 17, 2010 07:50 pm
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ANDREAS
Posted: February 17, 2010 09:53 pm
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QUOTE
Andrei Vlassov, the prominent ex-Soviet general (later Russian collaborator with the german occupants) who had been captured by the Germans in july 1942, offers new evidence. During a conversation in 1942 with SS general Richard Hildebrandt, he was asked if Stalin had intended to attack Germany, and if so, when. As Hildebrandt later related:
Vlassov responded by saying that the attack was planned for August-September 1941. The Russians had been preparing the attack since the beginning of the year, which took quite a while because of the poor Russian railroad network. Hitler had sized up the situation entirely correctly, and had struck directly into the Russian buildup. This, said Vlassov, is the reason for the tremendous initial German successes.

This statement was given by the soviet general short time after his capture and surely before his cohabitation with the germans... And as a commander of the soviet 4th Mechanised Corps we can imagine that Vlasov had informations related to a presumed soviet attack plan against Germany and his allies.
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ANDREAS
Posted: February 18, 2010 12:08 am
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In my opinion it is not that obvious that they were strong enough to initiate a serious offensive towards Romania.

Waching the overall situation (on 22 june 1941) you could be right, but at least in the Bukovina sector the soviet forces were superior to our troops. Obviously taking into account the soviet armor... and the poor antitank equipment of our Mountain Brigades... To be realistic it is clear that the soviet armor would not be attacked before the soviet infantry & mountain divisions have made a breach into the romanian defensive line... and the soviet armored columns would have a free entry into the deep of our territory... and forgot to mention that a mechanised division (from the same Corps as the Cernauti-based Tank Division) was stationed at Kamenets-Podolsky, not far from Nistru...
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MMM
Posted: February 18, 2010 05:56 am
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@Imperialist: (OoT) dude, you sound almost like the Ministry of Finances! Why pay for a book when you can get it for free? Also, try and see what "consumption" really means. Afterwards, try to think (if possible, for you, of course) what happens if one doesn't smoke or drinks and neither has "tutoring"! Or perhaps should I begin smoking just to have the pleasure of quitting afterwards?
@Andreas: Vlasov says August-September, but Rezun says July 6-th. Why the difference?
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