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> How to create a reenacting group in Oradea
Kepi
Posted: June 17, 2007 05:28 am
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Concerning the "21 inf" oppinion:

"About the fact that there are no Romanian people reenacting Roman legions, what can I say?
I wanted to start a reenactment group in Oradea, where I live, but unfortunately, I cant find enought people to volunteer for this kind of activity; reasons for people NOT to reenact: they never heard about reenacting; they dont have money for equipment; they dont have time for training; they know nothing about history and/or military; and the list can continue... "

As far as today, I have only 1 or 2 men for reenacting, with military experience and enthusiast enough to do reenactment. But also as far as today, we couldnt do anything to establish a reenactment group in Oradea...."


I think you don’t have to wait for a greater number of enthusiasts when you start a reenactment group. In 2004, when we started our Dorobantzes reenacting association, we were also only 3 people: two officers and a private. We have make our uniforms and because we were to few to reconstruct a military unit, we have participated at the Military Museum Days only as spectators dressed in historical costumes. (see the image story on our site: http://www.6dorobanti.ro/archive.php?id=1&language=ro ).

Then, as other people saw us and liked our impression, they joined us and so the size of group has increased. A few months later, we learned about the WW1 show of Komarom, Hungary, organized by the Military Museum of Budapest. We decided to make WW1 uniforms for the same unit (6th Dorobantzes Regiment), to train us according the WW1 regulations, and to participate as an Entante force. It was a nice experience and we were encouraged by the contact with other groups who faced the same problems as we did, but a few years earlier.

So, finally it’s your decision, belief and perseverance to set up a reenacting group and to find a few friends interested on such project. Of course, you have to decide upon a historical period, a unit and focus on the “story” of that unit and the purpose of your project. The uniform, equipment, weapons, drill, come later. The cost of the uniform & equipment it’s not so high if you’ll acquire progressively, along the time. Don’t forget, you have to tackle this activity as a hobby, for your pleasure and fun, not as a tiresome straining task.

It’s also important if you participate, even as spectator, on several reenacting shows, particularly on the period you are interested in. So you’ll see and meet the reenactors, you could discuss with them, learn how they succeeded to amass their equipment and how they deal with this hobby.

It would be great if you could come, even as a spectator, at our WW1 show of Brad (I hope that it will take place on the 11th of August) and meet us and the Bulgarian/Hungarian reenactors. As you are near the Hungarian border, it’s also easy to you to participate at some Hungarian historical shows and see their performances.

It’s also a good opportunity to join the local events for particular celebrations or commemorations (the city of Oradea Days, the National Day, the Heroes Day, etc.). Local authorities are always interested to give a historical touch to their shows, and they are ready to spend some money for these projects. There is also the branch of the National Military Museum in Oradea. Maybe the museologist there might be interested to cooperate with you for such a historical project. I know him (he’s not very active) and the former director of this museum, Colonel (ret.) Dumitru Mosincat (who still is an enthusiastic military historian), and maybe, next year, your group and our “6 Dorobantzes” association could build a common project on this matter.

We are ready to offer you all the assistance and help to rise your reenacting group.[I][/I][I][I]

This post has been edited by Kepi on June 18, 2007 06:36 am
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21 inf
Posted: June 17, 2007 01:28 pm
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First of all, I would like to thank you for your support offer regarding the reenacting group in Oradea!

We think about 2 posibilities of reenacting:
1. reenacting soldiers from XVII century, for some reasons: the fortress of Oradea was built in that period; weaponry easier to obtain, since we dont intend to use fire arms for that period; the real story of my ancestor, who was nobilitated in 1680, so I have a real coat of arms and nobility rank, wich I am allowed to use (document based); all 3 of us are agree that we can learn to fight with weapons as shields, armors, swords, daggers and so on; we are all interested on infantry weapons of that era.

2. we can also reenact a unit that use to have firearms, but we didnt established what period is interesting for all of us. Here comes a little problem that you can help us, regarding the posibility to obtain and use firearms with blind ammo. We all have some kind of "weapons" authorised by police on our names (compressed-air guns), but we know nothing about the issue that I mentioned above. Same lack of info about how to obtain legaly blind ammo for shows.
Perhaps you can help us with some sugestions about a certain period and a unit from our area to reenact (posible conected to other reenacting units from Romania, in order to participate together to some shows) ?

About your participation at Komarom, I read about you in Magazin Istoric :D ! Congratulations!

We want to go to Brad, I hope that the show it will be on 11th of August for at least several reasons: I anounced about 20 people about the show, so they want to go there as spectators (I dont want to look like a "parrot" :P ); my ancestors are from Brad area; I'll be abroad from 15th of August and I really cant wait to see your reenactment. :D

PS: how about to begin only with me and one of my friends as reenactors, joining at first to another group??

This post has been edited by 21 inf on June 17, 2007 01:32 pm
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mihnea
Posted: June 17, 2007 01:58 pm
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QUOTE (21 inf @ June 17, 2007 03:28 pm)
firearms with blind ammo. We all have some kind of "weapons" authorised by police on our names (compressed-air guns), but we know nothing about the issue that I mentioned above. Same lack of info about how to obtain legaly blind ammo for shows.

Ammo can't be blind only the shooter might be :lol: ; ammo can be: live ammo (with bullets) or blank ammo (a lot of noise but no killing). ;)
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Dénes
Posted: June 17, 2007 02:04 pm
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QUOTE (21 inf @ June 17, 2007 07:28 pm)
the real story of my ancestor, who was nobilitated in 1680, so I have a real coat of arms and nobility rank, wich I am allowed to use (document based)...

Can you tell us more about your ancestor?

Gen. Dénes
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21 inf
Posted: June 17, 2007 03:18 pm
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QUOTE (mihnea @ June 17, 2007 01:58 pm)
QUOTE (21 inf @ June 17, 2007 03:28 pm)
firearms with blind ammo. We all have some kind of "weapons" authorised by police on our names (compressed-air guns), but we know nothing about the issue that I mentioned above. Same lack of info about how to obtain legaly blind ammo for shows.

Ammo can't be blind only the shooter might be :lol: ; ammo can be: live ammo (with bullets) or blank ammo (a lot of noise but no killing). ;)

Sorry, I was translating from romanian "gloante oarbe" :D
You are right, it is corect to say blank ammo instead of blind ammo. :roll:
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21 inf
Posted: June 17, 2007 03:24 pm
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QUOTE (Dénes @ June 17, 2007 02:04 pm)
QUOTE (21 inf @ June 17, 2007 07:28 pm)
the real story of my ancestor, who was nobilitated in 1680, so I have a real coat of arms and nobility rank, wich I am allowed to use (document based)...

Can you tell us more about your ancestor?

Gen. Dénes


With your permission, I'm opening a different subject about my ancestor, giving the fact that it is off-topic to speak about him on this section of the forum.
The story can be found at the following link:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=17&t=4084

This post has been edited by 21 inf on June 17, 2007 03:31 pm
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Dénes
Posted: June 17, 2007 06:17 pm
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O.K., very nice and interesting.
Thank you.

Gen. Dénes
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Kepi
Posted: June 18, 2007 08:04 am
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QUOTE (21 inf @ June 17, 2007 01:28 pm)
First of all, I would like to thank you for your support offer regarding the reenacting group in Oradea!

We think about 2 posibilities of reenacting:
1. reenacting soldiers from XVII century, for some reasons: the fortress of Oradea was built in that period; weaponry easier to obtain, since we dont intend to use fire arms for that period; the real story of my ancestor, who was nobilitated in 1680, so I have a real coat of arms and nobility rank, wich I am allowed to use (document based); all 3 of us are agree that we can learn to fight with weapons as shields, armors, swords, daggers and so on; we are all interested on infantry weapons of that era.

2. we can also reenact a unit that use to have firearms, but we didnt established what period is interesting for all of us. Here comes a little problem that you can help us, regarding the posibility to obtain and use firearms with blind ammo. We all have some kind of "weapons" authorised by police on our names (compressed-air guns), but we know nothing about the issue that I mentioned above. Same lack of info about how to obtain legaly blind ammo for shows.
Perhaps you can help us with some sugestions about a certain period and a unit from our area to reenact (posible conected to other reenacting units from Romania, in order to participate together to some shows) ?

About your participation at Komarom, I read about you in Magazin Istoric  :D ! Congratulations!

We want to go to Brad, I hope that the show it will be on 11th of August for at least several reasons: I anounced about 20 people about the show, so they want to go there as spectators (I dont want to look like a "parrot"  :P ); my ancestors are from Brad area; I'll be abroad from 15th of August and I really cant wait to see your reenactment.  :D

PS: how about to begin only with me and one of my friends as reenactors, joining at first to another group??

Your both ideas concerning the reenacting are interesting.

I only want to note that it’s difficult to create a typical Romanian warriors unit of XVII-th century, particularly on that area of today Romania. From the end of XVI-th century, armies were mainly composed of companies of mercenaries and professional soldiers that “sold” their services & skills to the princes and kings who intended to raise a military force. Typical for that period and Central European region were the Hungarian/Transylvanian and Polish armies. The polish army during that “golden age” was composed of a mixture of western (“german”) military units: dragoons, trabants, musketeers, and eastern military units: hussars, seymens, hayduks, janissaries, tartars, kosaks. These warriors were dressed in their traditional/national costumes, brought their own weapons and used traditional tactics.

It’s difficult to speak about a Romanian military tradition and fashion except the Wallachian Dorobantzes (Trabanten) and Calarashi (horsemen) in mid. XVII-th century. Unfortunately, there is no information and serious studies concerning the dress, tactics, weapons of these units, but they should fallow the fashion of the East/Central European costume.

You said that your ancestor was awarded with a nobility rank for his military service. It’s difficult to say if he belonged to a Romanian/Wallachian unit fighting for the Prince of Transylvania or he joined other local or foreign unit.

There are a few medieval reenactment groups in Hungary that remembrer the Hungarian/Central European style of warfare (see their portal: http://katonaihagyomany.lap.hu/ ). There are also some medieval reenacting groups in Romania: The Knights of Medias, of Sibiu, of Sighisoara, etc. that participate at the medieval festivals such as the famous event of Sighisoara. I’m not very much satisfied by the quality of their performance because they simply copied the western style of chivalry that was not specific for the eastern part of Europe, not even for the german area of Transylvania . In this region was a mixture of western and eastern styles of armours, weapons and tactics.

Another solution is to select a Romanian military unit of the modern times, that was located in Oradea since 1918. After WW1 in Oradea was set up the 17th Infantry Division , with the 17th Infantry Brigade - Oradea ( 85th and 86th infantry regiments) and the 47th Infantry Brigade – Cluj (83rd and 98th infantry regiments). After the Arbitration/Dictate of Vienna, of August 1940, some Romanian units, such as the 17th Infantry Division , were disbanded.

After WW2, in Oradea was located the 18th Infantry Division (90th, 91st and 92nd infantry regiments). This great unit was numbered the 35th, and in 1951was relocated in Banat, to face the menace of Tito’s Yugoslavia.

In 1949, from the 2nd Infantry Division (Craiova) was set up the 11th Infantry Division (Oradea), composed of the 3rd, 14th and 36th infantry regiments. In 1951 the 11th Infantry Division was numbered the 95th Infantry Division (composed of 285th, 199th and 104th infantry regiments). In 1959 the division regains its old number, the 18th, and the 285th infantry became the 21st Infantry Mechanized Regiment. In 1994 this regiment was transformed in the 21st Infantry Battalion “General Traian Mosoiu”.

In 1959, the 21st Infantry Regiment/Battalion took the traditions of the 3rd Dorobantzes Regiment “Olt”, that was set up on 1st January 1877, and have participated at all the major campaigns of the Romanian army.

It was not a good idea to give the number 21st to the infantry regiment of Oradea and adopt the traditions of the 3rd Dorobantzes “Olt” , because the 21st infantry had its own tradition in the Romanian army and was one of the oldest units (set up in 1830 as the first infantry regiment in Moldavia, became the 4th line infantry in 1859 and the 21st infantry in 1890). Unfortunately nobody cared about traditions in 1959.

Personally I would prefer a local (Oradea) or Transylvanian unit, maybe an Austrian regiment with a major Romanian presence. For example the 50th KuK Infantry Regiment of Alba Iulia, raised in 1850, with 71 % Romanian manpower in 1914, bore the traditions of the 2nd Wallachian Frontier Regiment of Nasaud (set up in 1764). In 1919, in Alba Iulia was set up the 91st Infantry Regiment “King Ferdinand”, that was supposed to continue the great military traditions of the 50th KuK regt.

Finally it’s up to you to decide what is the best unit to reenact, in order to establish the “story” of your group, make the right uniforms, etc.

Concerning the fire weapons, this is another story. We still use the rifles borrowed from the military museum, as we co-operate with them for the shows. Some of us are fire weapons collectors, and participate at the shows with their own arms, but it’s difficult to amass a great quantity of rifles of the same type. As I told you, it might be a possibility to cooperate with the military museum of Oradea for some shows, and borrow their weapons for those events. As far as I know, Colonel Mosincat used some old weapons and uniforms of the museum during the historical events.
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Dénes
Posted: June 18, 2007 11:53 am
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QUOTE (Kepi @ June 18, 2007 02:04 pm)
Personally I would prefer a local (Oradea) or Transylvanian unit, maybe an Austrian regiment with a major Romanian presence. For example the 50th KuK Infantry Regiment of Alba Iulia, raised in 1850, with 71 % Romanian manpower in 1914, bore the traditions of the 2nd Wallachian  Frontier Regiment of Nasaud (set up in 1764).

In my opinion that would not be so easy to accurately follow. For example, the command language of that k.u.k. unit was German. How many of the would-be re-enactors is proficient enough in German?
Also, they carried flags that would not be easily "swallowed" by the members and the general public, i.e. the flag of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy.

I think it would be much easier to reenact a post-1919 unit, like the one Kepi suggested:
"In 1919, in Alba Iulia was set up the 91st Infantry Regiment “King Ferdinand”, that was supposed to continue the great military traditions of the 50th KuK regt."

Just my two-cent contribution to this interesting topic.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on June 18, 2007 11:54 am
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21 inf
Posted: June 18, 2007 04:45 pm
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Hello Kepi and Denes!

Thank you both for your good suggestions!

I was talking yesterday with one of nephews about the reenacting group.

Here are our ideas, please free to comment them, you are more experienced in reenactment.

1 st idea - in conection with Zalau roman reenacting. We can reenact one of Dacian cohorts who was raised by romans. Romans allowed native auxiliary cohorts to use their native flags, uniforms and weaponry. It should be easy to reenact with great accuracy, my nephew being archaeologist and being pasionate of roman era.
As far as I know (from my memory) it was raised Cohors I Dacorum, garisoned at today Rasnov and Cohors II Dacorum garisoned somewhere in Britania.

2nd idea - in conection with the knights from Sighisoara, towards I having the same impresion like you, that they are not historically real for this part of Europe, they are to much "commercial". We can reenact mercenary walachians from XVII century, not a certain unit. This is researchable, we can info about clothes, weapons and tactics of transylvanian walachian mercenaries.

3rd idea - a military unit that was raised even by AH monarchy, cos as far as I know, there was raised units almost entirely from the ranks of some nations from AH monarchy, only the officers being austrians. Is the case of reenacting group from Alba Iulia.

About a foreign language as German, it will be not a problem, we'll learn what we need if necesary. The hungarian guys who reenact roman legionaries used only comands in latin! Admirable, and of course an example of profesionalism that must be aplied in Romania also.

If Kepi can help with some images with transylvanian mercenaries from XVII century, it will be a great plus. Thank you in advance!

This post has been edited by 21 inf on June 18, 2007 07:29 pm
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Kepi
Posted: June 19, 2007 05:53 pm
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I agree your opinons concerning the three kinds of reenactment you would like to create.

I only want to note that it’s not easy to make three different costumes for three different periods. But, of course you may tackle these impressions along the time.

I would try to give you all the information I have (unfortunately not very much on the antique and medieval periods). But this would be possible only after the event of Ploiesti, of the next week-end, because I’m very much involved in this project.
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21 inf
Posted: June 19, 2007 06:34 pm
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Thank you.

It was 3 ideas, but of course we'll reenact only one period of time B) .

I exposed all ideas cos i wanted you to help with the selection of the best idea.
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21 inf
Posted: June 22, 2007 01:16 pm
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QUOTE (Kepi @ June 18, 2007 08:04 am)

As I told you, it might be a possibility to cooperate with the military museum of Oradea for some shows, and borrow  their weapons for those events. As far as I know, Colonel Mosincat used some old weapons and uniforms of the museum during the historical events.

I was today at the Military Museum from Oradea, but even if I went there during program hours (10-16 hours), the doors were closed, and no one was at the museum.

I wanted to contact colonel Mosincat to discuss with him about a posible cooperation for reenactment.

Can you give me his phone number, if you know it, so I can schedule a meeting with him? (please PM if you can help me; thank you).
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Kepi
Posted: October 16, 2007 06:52 pm
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@ 21 inf.

Concerning your intention to set up a reenactment group in Oradea, I think the best idea is to find a Romanian unit that fought in both world wars. So, you will have the opportunity to participate, as a historical unit, at the commemorative shows that are frequently organized in your city ( “Oradea Days” – 12th of October, “The Romanian Armed Forces Day” – 25th of October, “The National Day” – 1st of December ).

Unfortunately, as I told you in my first message of this topic, the infantry units located in Oradea, set up in 1919, were mostly disbanded in 1940, when the Northern Transylvania was annexed by Hungary, and didn’t fought in WW2.

I think you should choose one of the first Transylvanian units set up at the beginning of 1919. Among these units was the 91st Infantry Regiment (20th Infantry Division) of Alba Iulia, that was mobilized in May 1919. It was composed of ex –AH soldiers, of the 50th KuK Infantry Regiment, garrisoned in Alba Iulia., with a great composition of Romanian ethnic soldiers. The 50th KuK Infantry Regiment, set up in 1850, took the traditions of the 2nd Wallachian Grenz Infantry Regiment of Nasaud, that goes back to 1764.

In 1922, when King Ferdinand I visited this regiment during the coronation ceremonies as King of the Great Romania, the 91st Infantry Regiment was named “Ferdinand I”. In his speech, Prince Carol (the future King Carol II) make a connection between the traditions of the Romanian 91st Infantry and the KuK 50th Infantry regiments.

The 91st Infantry was not disbanded in August-September 1940 and fought in WW2.

Concerning the Romanian ex-AH soldiers, POWs in Russia, who volunteered for the Romanian army in WW1, they first fought in different Romanian infantry units in summer 1917. In October 1917, was set up the Transylvanian Volunteers Corps, composed of the 1st “Turda” and the 2nd “Alba Iulia” regiments. In January 1918 was created the 3rd “Avram Iancu” Regiment. These units were disbanded after the peace treaty of Buftea, in April 1918, but recreated in February 1919, to fight against Hungarian troops. There is no evidence of any direct connection between the 2nd Volunteers Regiment “Alba Iulia” and the 91st Infantry Regiment of Alba Iulia, but I think you could combine these two units to get Romanian WW1 and WW2 impressions.

If necessary, you could also reenact Romanian ethnic soldiers of the AH army before 1917 ( 50th KuK Infantry and 2nd Grenz Infantry). :)
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21 inf
Posted: October 17, 2007 02:31 am
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Thanks, Kepi for the infos!

What about the conection between Volunteer Corp Horia (Volunteer Corp Beius in other sources) , who received its banner on 2nd March 1919 at Tebea, and the 86th Inf Reg from Oradea?
I read the the 86 was made on the nucleus of Volunteer Corp Horia. Was also 86 IR disbanded in 1940?

This post has been edited by 21 inf on October 17, 2007 02:34 am
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